Out Toss (now with a page 2 explanation by Brian Manzella)
- Thread starter bertsmith
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Dear bertsmith,
In 2007-2008, with the great help of Dr Steve Nesbit and Dr, Keven Ball's efforts, it started to become 'scientifically' clear the impact that lower body dynamic IMBALANCE had on the scattered and weak resulting shots.
Subsequently, the study was expanded to include the potential impact UPPER BODY variations in dynamics had on overall body dynamic balance /imbalance, and the efficacy or impact on distance and accuracy/dispersion. More recently, after Brian asked me to provide an estimate of what percentage of the total club head velocity comes from what part of the body, I turned my attention to the left shoulder complex, and its role in more accurately and completely answering this question.
So bertsmith, would you please define the characteristics of both distance (or club head speed if available) and accuracy/dispersion that you suffer when as you said " Now and then I omit the out toss, and my ball striking suffers".
My work to date has analytically, with limited testing, looked at the impact various left shoulder positions/paths and ranges of motion have on the ability to develop torque around the humerus/glenoid joint, and the variations are considerable, and may explain the differences you are experiencing.
AND PLEASE, ANYONE ELSE REALIZING THESE OR SIMILAR CHARACTERISTICS, PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR EXPERIENCES TOO.
Appreciatively,
art
Could someone please explain Out Toss. I have a suggestion. How about a sticky with all these inside baseball terms so when one comes up all you have to do is look up the term in the glossary sticky at the top of the page.
Otherwise why not just text each other using these only familiar terms to the few who know what they are. The audience that actually understands these made up terms is so small IMO that having a discussion without letting people in on the term is limiting in it's worth to most golfers who visit this site.
Otherwise why not just text each other using these only familiar terms to the few who know what they are. The audience that actually understands these made up terms is so small IMO that having a discussion without letting people in on the term is limiting in it's worth to most golfers who visit this site.
Great idea
Could someone please explain Out Toss. I have a suggestion. How about a sticky with all these inside baseball terms so when one comes up all you have to do is look up the term in the glossary sticky at the top of the page.
Otherwise why not just text each other using these only familiar terms to the few who know what they are. The audience that actually understands these made up terms is so small IMO that having a discussion without letting people in on the term is limiting in it's worth to most golfers who visit this site
Could someone please explain Out Toss. I have a suggestion. How about a sticky with all these inside baseball terms so when one comes up all you have to do is look up the term in the glossary sticky at the top of the page.
Otherwise why not just text each other using these only familiar terms to the few who know what they are. The audience that actually understands these made up terms is so small IMO that having a discussion without letting people in on the term is limiting in it's worth to most golfers who visit this site
softconsult
New
Why should someone take the time to explain it to you? Don't be lazy. Do the work. Open Google. Type site:Brian Manzella.com Out Toss and voila you have links to help you learn. Pick the term search it, learn about it.
Lots of people on this forum know the term, lots. They have done the work. The world is full of terms. They are useful. In my business life, new employees are required to learn the industry terms and concepts. Not so different on this golf forum.
Just imagine the effect of what you suggest in your paragraph three. Everytime a poster wanted to use a term, he or she would have to explain it. Great idea? Aah, no. Actually a silly idea.
Lots of people on this forum know the term, lots. They have done the work. The world is full of terms. They are useful. In my business life, new employees are required to learn the industry terms and concepts. Not so different on this golf forum.
Just imagine the effect of what you suggest in your paragraph three. Everytime a poster wanted to use a term, he or she would have to explain it. Great idea? Aah, no. Actually a silly idea.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Here's another idea. Do a search. These terms have been explained so many times it's ridiculous. Or better yet, buy the release video. It's all in there.
Puttmaster, your link has an inadvertent space in it which drastically affects the results.
here is a better form of your link, though FWIW I personally l prefer to put the site: at the trailing edge of the seach
site: brianmanzella.com out toss - Google Search
here is a better form of your link, though FWIW I personally l prefer to put the site: at the trailing edge of the seach
site: brianmanzella.com out toss - Google Search
By the way, here is where IOTR (Ideas On The Release) was discussed initIally (171 pages). At the top of the page you can also use "Search Thread" for the term liek TOSS and get many posts about it.
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15964-release-w-brian-manzella-michael-jacobs.html
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15964-release-w-brian-manzella-michael-jacobs.html
softconsult
New
"Puttmaster, your link has an inadvertent space in it which drastically affects the results.
here is a better for of your lin, though FWIW< I persoanlyl preer to put the site: at the trailing edge of the seach
site: brianmanzella.com out toss - Google Search "
dbl, you may want to revisit your post. Line two is, well, let's just say sloppy, and line 3 is identical to puttmaster's , which, by the way, works fine.
here is a better for of your lin, though FWIW< I persoanlyl preer to put the site: at the trailing edge of the seach
site: brianmanzella.com out toss - Google Search "
dbl, you may want to revisit your post. Line two is, well, let's just say sloppy, and line 3 is identical to puttmaster's , which, by the way, works fine.
No thanks (to buying a video). I thought this site was still growing and has new people visiting it all the time. IMO what's ridiculous is the use of made up terms that only a few people know about. Sounds like a great strategy for growing a golf web-site using vernacular that only a few long-time members of this site know.
Like I said, why not just text each other instead?
puttmaster
New
Erik_K
New
The video is far superior to describing the swing movements in words. Yes, it's sort of a pain that there are numerous terms and ideas (and theories) floating around. Most of the time we use words and not much in the way of diagrams or pictures to explain the concepts. Brian, much to his credit, has produced some wonderful videos on many of his ideas - including the release. Avoiding the video the purchase only hurts you, in my opinion. There's some very good discussion and in the end, it will end up saving you time.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The "OUT-TOSS" is a feel that a golfer may employ to help him get from the top of the swing to a location later in the downswing.
During the US OPEN, I gave nearly 200 lessons at the Sports Illustrated at the Majors promotion in Union Square. I didn't use the concet one single time.
But, this month, I have used it, or something like it, on a couple of students.
It usually works for folks who have poor hand paths from the top of the swing, often due to an attempt by the golfer to artificially move their hands toward—or near—the ball.
In version "A" above, the inset of Tiger at impact was used to "grab" his impact arms, and rotate them to the top of the swing. This "OUT-TOSS" will feel like the golfer is lining up his arms and club from the top, usually in the directions shown.
Obviously, this is done when the golfer is making a normal downswing pivot, but it is often accompanied by the feeling of keeping the back to the target.
In version "B" above, the inset of Tiger just past last parallel was used to "grab" his arm hand and club location, and rotate them to the top of the swing. This "OUT-TOSS" will feel like the golfer is lining up his arms from the top, often for width purposes, and the club portion will on have a little bit of a toss component.
Again, this is done when the golfer is making a normal downswing pivot, but it is often accompanied by the feeling of keeping the back to the target.
The "OUT-TOSS" is feel or suggestion for a feel, that fits only a small percentage of the overall golf population, but a far greater percentage of folks taught to aim their hands way forward, and never line the club up—but let some mysterious force do it for them.
BManz
The Tiger pictures show it well. Now I remember it when one of Michael Jacobs (free) videos he demonstrated that the first move in the downswing was out and away from the body in many Tour players. I'll try and make a mental note that (that) move is known as "out toss." Don't think I need it in my swing. Thanks for the visual and verbal explanation.
Erik_K
New
rogerdodger
New
Brian's explanation of the out toss is notable for a lot of things, but especially his indication that it fits a small percentage of golfers. No instructor anywhere has a larger tool box than Brian. I just reviewed my notes from my lesson with him a year ago. He gave me the polar opposite of out toss. I got the Joe Durant drill, yellow brick road, Ben Doyle tee drill, release the clubs with my hips, pitch elbow and as far from out toss as you can get. Trying to box Brian into a method is not going to work. He simply teaches what works for each student, and uses more than anyone else has, period.
softconsult
New
Keefer, are you really that dense?
sorry about the typos, and couldn't delete that till i figured how.
As to the link, puttmaster's would bring up non Manzella websites, a critical error, I feel, considering the presumed intent was to search THIS site.
Any way, no worries. And the host's pic and explanation fills the bill beyond expectation!
Btw, good to see you around again.
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OK dillweed, quick what's the yellow brick road drill? Is it right between hump the goat or throw the drunk off? You can use all the cute little euphemisms you'd like, but how about an easy to find list of what each one means? For those of us who don't live here 24/7 and aren't in the inner circle it might help the cause. Don't-cha think?
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