Out Toss (now with a page 2 explanation by Brian Manzella)

[spktho]

I think one difference between "karate chop" and "palm away" out toss has to do with face control. The "palm away" seems like it would get and keep the face closed to start the down swing for those who need to.

 

[bcoak]

The title of the video was "Ideas about The Release."

It is not, was not, and will not be, a "THIS IS HOW TO DO IT for everyone" video.

I say as much early on in the video.

It is for the folks that NEED IT. Just like all the other videos.

I think I am a candidate for it as I tug and hold with the club not getting past the hands. Is there a way to determine if u should be doing it?

 

[Burner]

I know, I know.

In which case, Burner, the stylistically-correct response would have been "I see what you did there" [smiley optional]

But, keefer would not have (necessarily seen what I did there).

The optional smiley was included only to assuage those who are all to ready to take offense at that which they do not readily appreciate.

 

[Jwat]

I think one difference between "karate chop" and "palm away" out toss has to do with face control. The "palm away" seems like it would get and keep the face closed to start the down swing for those who need to.

agree, but it is really more about hand control (which controls the face). So my question is, " Will the karate chop with the right hand keep it from getting under at the beginning of the DS?"

 

[spktho]

agree, but it is really more about hand control (which controls the face). So my question is, " Will the karate chop with the right hand keep it from getting under at the beginning of the DS?"

I think the palm away would help stop the shaft and sweet spot from getting under plane early. But, I hope Kevin or Brian will answer definitively.

 

[Jwat]

Yea practiced the karate chop, didn't matter. Was still able to get under it.

 

[art]

Art, with no out toss, high fades. With OT, generally pretty much toward the target. With OT and palm facing away from the target, pulls and pull hooks.

Dear bertsmith,

Sorry for the delay in saying thanks for the data, but a special THANKS because your findings connect with the 'integrated' golf science of the lower body, upper body, left shoulder complex tat I have been studying.

In general it goes something like this. With counterclockwise 'twist' the predominant characteristic of a right hander's explosive down swing, it is easy to see the potential and IMO major role of the relationship of the left shoulder to the diagonal right hip, and yes, the KIB part of BBKIB plays a role here. So as you OT, you can see a definite effect on the changing position and path of the left shoulder complex, especially with regard to its relationship to the upper body/core, and more especially (if correct English) to the resultant 'dynamic' characteristics including range and torque generating capability of the lead shoulder complex.

TOO COMPLEX ALREADY ?, sorry, so let me conclude. I believe I can show that the efficacy and need for the OT is very related to the left shoulder complex, and in general, the 'more angular room', the greater the torque generating potential AND the unexpected reduction in the need for compensating moves of the hands and arms described later in this swing.

Sincerely,
art

 

[bertsmith]

Art, can you describe in some detail what the left shoulder or other body components should be doing? BM in the IATR video says to more or less let the body react to the motion of the arms. I find that my misses are accompanied with an out of balance body position, usually sort of pulled out and forward to the left.

 

[art]

Art, can you describe in some detail what the left shoulder or other body components should be doing? BM in the IATR video says to more or less let the body react to the motion of the arms. I find that my misses are accompanied with an out of balance body position, usually sort of pulled out and forward to the left.

Dear bertsmith,

The feeling of, as you said "an out of balance body position, usually sort of pulled out and forward to the left", is the result of an overall body (lower and upper body) instability. Not having any videos of you swinging BUT seeing this problem frequently, the solution is to KIB for the lower body, and 'back to the target' (BTTT), as long as possible for the upper body, which IMO because of the characteristics of YOUR implementing the OT, is creating a major additional DYNAMIC INSTABILITY, the lower body can not handle.

I am sorry, but this situation is a bit complicated, but also quite common, so here goes. In a previous post, I once asked the science-oriented folks on this site to comment, and if possible, analyze the 4 major invisible forces that drive and determine the overall stability of every golf swing (and maybe 8 counting the reactions to these forces). They are (1), the centripetal force of the golf club (probably including the hands), (2) the centripetal force of the rotating shoulder complexes and arms, (3) the centripetal force of the upper body and torso, and finally, and IMO, the only force available to TRY to offset and balance the other 3, the centripetal force of the lower body. My work has led to BBKIB, as the CRUCIAL building block for the overall dynamic stability required, and now offering some insight into the upper body and shoulder complexes in answer to your questions.

The time phased and integrated combination of all these 3 D vectors flowing thru to the ground reaction forces determines the overall stability of every swing. So in the situation you have sited, bertsmith, in addition to BB, (and especially the KIB) , and BTTT as long as possible, you should feel like you forward (left) shoulder and arm have the freedom and balance you are seeking for the transition and downswing. Then, IMO, because of the additional upper body dynamic stability AND POSITIONS you have provided, the OT will occur naturally. BUT, being a great fan of Tim Gallwey, and his work on 'Awareness Instructions', I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you place your awareness on the lead (left) shoulder, and if it goes UP, rather than horizontal, you will have succeeded in reinforcing the REQUIRED stability enhancements of the other BBKIB, and BTTT.

Good luck, and PLEASE let us know how this works, good or bad.

Sincerely,
art

 

[lia41985]

agree, but it is really more about hand control (which controls the face). So my question is, " Will the karate chop with the right hand keep it from getting under at the beginning of the DS?"

If I could offer a suggestion. Check out this video of Gary Player: <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vMzCi1RmNX0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Watch his left hand. The back of the left hand, if you were to draw a straight line across it, that line never gets anything close to 180 degres parallel with the sky. Imagine cutting off your arm and laying it with palm down on top of a table or desk. Gruesome but illustrative. That's what I'm talking about. The left hand never gets like that. From a position at the top of the swing that's very "in" (on a vertical line drawn nearly vertical with Player's heel line i.e. perpendicular to the angle of the ground), Player supinates the left arm (and palmar flexes the left hand twisting/gamma-ing) on a line that stays fairly vertical (or in i.e. the opposite of what is termed an outward hand path), if you catch my drift. Hopefully the down the line view of these pictures convey what I'm attempting to communicate:

As his hands travel horizontally, from a down the line view, from his heel line to toe line (lines drawn perpendicular to the ground from the toes and heels, there's a substantial amount of supination of the left arm and on a fairly steep angle. Notice also how vertical the left arm is--this is left arm replacement:

Taken together, this leads to the EXACT OPPOSITE of a backed up shaft. See what Tiger's doing here:
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/36869055" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/36869055">Tiger Tumble and Down-Toss Drill</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
As the title of the video states, this sets up a nice tumble (shaft steepens and face closes on a good path).

And remember, this is also occurring during the tangential phase of the swing sequence. This is the other view you need to take into account:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7f0beb4VYoE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Think behind you but not backed up. How f----n' counter intuitive is that? Golf's a hard game to learn to play, I'd submit, primarily because so much of it is this way. Watch when and where Rickie's right hand "turns down":
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tA20_yiqDyQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
This helps Rickie to rotate around the coupling point, rotate the handle (per ENSO), and execute a [COLOR="#80000"]free release[/COLOR] (in the flexion-extension plane): https://picasaweb.google.com/106612...CPr3tL7Lw_nRpwE#slideshow/5761019179083584274

For the golfer that maybe learned all of this as part of the out toss (whatever it takes for the teacher to convey to the student what needs to be done) I feel like it can really be a break through in offering some students a way to do it without thinking about it any more than that. The out toss is short hand for these simultaneously sequenced movements.

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

Dear bertsmith,

The feeling of, as you said "an out of balance body position, usually sort of pulled out and forward to the left", is the result of an overall body (lower and upper body) instability. Not having any videos of you swinging BUT seeing this problem frequently, the solution is to KIB for the lower body, and 'back to the target' (BTTT), as long as possible for the upper body, which IMO because of the characteristics of YOUR implementing the OT, is creating a major additional DYNAMIC INSTABILITY, the lower body can not handle.

I am sorry, but this situation is a bit complicated, but also quite common, so here goes. In a previous post, I once asked the science-oriented folks on this site to comment, and if possible, analyze the 4 major invisible forces that drive and determine the overall stability of every golf swing (and maybe 8 counting the reactions to these forces). They are (1), the centripetal force of the golf club (probably including the hands), (2) the centripetal force of the rotating shoulder complexes and arms, (3) the centripetal force of the upper body and torso, and finally, and IMO, the only force available to TRY to offset and balance the other 3, the centripetal force of the lower body. My work has led to BBKIB, as the CRUCIAL building block for the overall dynamic stability required, and now offering some insight into the upper body and shoulder complexes in answer to your questions.

The time phased and integrated combination of all these 3 D vectors flowing thru to the ground reaction forces determines the overall stability of................................................

Sincerely,
art

Art,

First of all thank you for your wonderful contributions to the site. Obviously, lower body stability seems to be your sine qua non for even beginning to establish a successful pattern, regardless of what pattern the instructors/students decide upon for said students. Given your experience with biomechanics, and having been exposed to the Manzella approach and process dominant on the website, would you not suggest that virtually every non-scratch golfer at least consider a lesson with an AMM, K-Vest, or equivalent device (if said equivalents exist, besides an ENSO most of us could not even dream of using)? I am thinking this would be particularly uselful to those of us with back/joint issues that may not be able to consistently repeat a conventional swing, or have allowed these conditions to gradually ingrain incorrect but more comfortable aspects to our swings.

 

[art]

Art,

First of all thank you for your wonderful contributions to the site. Obviously, lower body stability seems to be your sine qua non for even beginning to establish a successful pattern, regardless of what pattern the instructors/students decide upon for said students. Given your experience with biomechanics, and having been exposed to the Manzella approach and process dominant on the website, would you not suggest that virtually every non-scratch golfer at least consider a lesson with an AMM, K-Vest, or equivalent device (if said equivalents exist, besides an ENSO most of us could not even dream of using)? I am thinking this would be particularly uselful to those of us with back/joint issues that may not be able to consistently repeat a conventional swing, or have allowed these conditions to gradually ingrain incorrect but more comfortable aspects to our swings.

Dear TROYNYGOLFER,

Pardon my sigh, just writing to you in TROY, makes me realize that ALL of my GOOD vocational and now golf experiences regarding science came from what I learned while in Troy, and Rensselaer. Thanks for the memories.

Regarding your critical observation, there certainly are 'elite' golfers and the rest of us, and because of the level of commitment and training/conditioning, some form of what is usually defined as 'SCREENING'' by a professional I believe should be mandatory.The screening data should GO TO the teaching professional AND the student as the starting point for what will follow.

You may have missed it, but in a few previous posts, I noted spending time with the folks at The Centinela Biomechanical Lab in Los Angeles, proposing a new research project, and reviewing their work on golf related injuries. Unfortunately, they were forced to suspend that research, and now I am trying to encourage folks at The Cleveland Clinic to continue at least the 'back injury potential' work USING K-VEST.

Phase 1, involving 5 golfers with back issues, and 6 without issues has been completed and is in 'peer review', while concurrently, the next phase proposals are being generated. IMO, this is a VERY important area. The use of the K-Vest, with its sensors allows the calculation of the 'Instantaneous Crunch Factor', an elementary, but the start of a biomechanical understanding of the stresses being created in the lower back. It is the very simple product of the "Lower Back Angle" multiplied by the "Angular Rotational Velocity", continuously during the swing.

These parameters are also available from the MUCH MORE informative (and costly) AMM 12 Sensor System, BUT both systems utilize the Titleist Data Base and presentation software.

I hope that helps.

Regards,
art

 

[lia41985]

Sequence "A" would seem to be a feeling that gets Tiger in a position late in the swing where he has this much turn down of the face/right palm down before impact:

You can see something similar with Dustin Johnson: