Out Toss (now with a page 2 explanation by Brian Manzella)

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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I'm a little confused, I was under the impression that IOTR represented the best current thinking on swinging a golf club and that 'out toss' was a critical component of that - but you aren't really teaching this to many? Am I missing something?

What you are missing may be this. Some people don't need to be taught a certain move or need to think about it. Another important thing is to be having forces on the club normal to the arc but I'll bet he doesn't teach that to everyone either. Anyone who says they teach something to everyone is a teacher you should reconsider seeing IMO.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I'm a little confused, I was under the impression that IOTR represented the best current thinking on swinging a golf club and that 'out toss' was a critical component of that - but you aren't really teaching this to many? Am I missing something?

The title of the video was "Ideas about The Release."

It is not, was not, and will not be, a "THIS IS HOW TO DO IT for everyone" video.

I say as much early on in the video.

It is for the folks that NEED IT. Just like all the other videos.
 

Pete J

Banned
The title of the video was "Ideas about The Release."

It is not, was not, and will not be, a "THIS IS HOW TO DO IT for everyone" video.

I say as much early on in the video.

It is for the folks that NEED IT. Just like all the other videos.

Love your "soft draw" video. What folks NEED the release video?
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
I guess I misunderstood and thought that these new concepts were applicable to more/most people. So who is the ideal candidate for IOTR?

I would say people who are trying for a lot of lag and are trying to do this with aiming their way forward or trying yank down on the club in an attempt to create lag.
 
I guess I misunderstood and thought that these new concepts were applicable to more/most people. So who is the ideal candidate for IOTR?

In my understanding of the concepts, the "ideas" that Brian talks about in the video describe the way the club actually works in the swing. And these ideas, based on a lot of new evidence and science, DEBUNK a number of myths that have been propagated in golf instruction over the past 25 years or so.

But the video itself is NOT teaching a pattern really, and certainly not a pattern that applies to everyone (I don't think any pattern applies to everyone because what pattern you need depends on what swing you currently have).

Brain used to talk about "blowing up" an old pattern before replacing it with a new one. I am not sure he uses this language much any more, but it seems to me that IOTR totally BLOWS UP a lot of handle-dragging, aiming pt., flat flat flat left wrist patterns out there.

Personally, I have tried to use IOTR to THINK about my optimal pattern, but unlike either NSA or SD, I haven't tried to implement all its elements as if it would make a new pattern me. I was never much of a handle dragger; in fact, my swing error is to get flippy. But IOTR has really helped me think about how to square the clubface (tumble and gamma torque) and how to have forward shaft lean without slamming the club down on top of the ball.

If someone was brand new to this site, I would still recommend NSA 2.0, especially for anyone with a handicap of 2 digits or larger.
 
I'm a little confused, I was under the impression that IOTR represented the best current thinking on swinging a golf club and that 'out toss' was a critical component of that - but you aren't really teaching this to many? Am I missing something?

While the instructors can be more specific, it is probably very helpful to people like me. I was a flipper and purchased COFF, and picked up a few related drills. Three months later when I went to see Mike Jacobs, I had overcorrected to such an extent that my ballstriking was incredibly inconsistent. This was prior to Mike and Brian's megathreads on the topic. All I had to do was release the club, as my natural path was perfectly acceptable. I use the "out-toss" in practice swings when I notice my woods/long iron swing getting too steep (high VSP). When I make a "flatter" shoulder turn, my hands tend to wander down a little early and will sometimes get stuck underplane. The feeling of the out-toss seems to bring my hands right into position.

Of course, now that I am spanking the driver and mid-long irons, my 150 & in game has decided to take a vacation. :confused:
 

art

New
Now and then I omit the out toss, and my ball striking suffers. Things improve immediately when I go back to it, but I don't have much success when I face my palm directly backward. What is the reason for doing so? My grip is neutral.

Dear bertsmith,

FRUSTRATION FRUSTRATION, MAYBE I AM ON THE WRONG GOLF BLOG BUT PLEASE READ ON !!!

Not frusrated with you bertsmith, but with the 'drift' and sometimes the INSIGNIFICANCE AND IRRELEVANCE of the comments that followed your sincere questions, and finally, the AVOIDANCE in addressing and attempting to answer the original question.

Seems like a year ago, but really back in February for reasons only Brian himself can tell you, he gave me a coveted HALL OF FAME AWARD for writing that I personally, and suggest that everyone posting give their 'soon to be post' a last minute 'VALUE ADDED CHECK'. I at the time, (and still now), very much valued the recognition and pledged to myself that I would ALWAYS honor that simple to do test, and only the rest of you can be the judges as to HOW I have done.

Now to my real points. This will probably be the #50, or more post on "bertsmiths' questions, and I still can not find answers, even including my post #2, where I asked for a little more insight before answering SCIENTIFICALLY.

So, bertsmith, from my background and specialties, "The out toss works for you BECAUSE it provides more harmony, shoulder cuff 'rhythm' and overall better left arm 'dynamics' to those swings where you maintained your selected degree of 'out tossing'.

Further, the lack of success when you stated, "when I face my palm directly backward" is IMO the direst result of 'corrupting' but more importantly RESTRICTING the position and path of your lead arm rotating around the humerus/glenoid joint.

What are the professional instruction or player experience-based answers to these questions ?

Now, finally, my REAL FRUSTRATION.

While there are some useful direct and indirect comments from some of you responding, IMO, the responses are dominated with non-related issues ie, whether or not Keefer should have access to a glossary, how to do a search etc., ALSO, with the exception of a much to INFREQUENT input from 'mandrin', I do not 'feel' in this and most all responses, the DIRECT presence of ANY of the noted scientists that are often referenced here, and attended the Anti Summits. Of course I recognize that some of you CALL these folks, and then post your understanding of what you were told, and I certainly appreciate having at least that interchange. But, for a high quality site like this, isn't it appropriate to ask them to directly respond to 'selected high value questions' ?

So, in conclusion, as I have done ON PURPOSE with many of my recent posts , (unfortunately with little success, which may be an indication that I am a mis fit here), I now ask ALL of you to consider providing some FEEDBACK AT LEAST ON:

(1) What are your answers to bertsmiths questions,

(2) Do you SHARE, and are you willing to expand on any of my frustrations ??

AND YES, I gave this post several 'value added checks', that is value added IMO.

Very sincerely, but concerned,
art
 
I guess what Keefer is REALLY complaining about is being told in a somewhat condescending manner to use the search function. well, duh!

I kind of relate to that. Someone asks a question. If I know the answer, and can be arsed to type it up, I'll do it. If I don't know, or I can't be arsed - whether because it's too long, involved, controversial, or likely to start another Hogan discussion - I probably won't, in which case I'll just keep quiet. Help. Or don't help. It's that simple.

What I would never do is lecture someone on using the search function - unless it was a suggestion along lines of "I'm sure there was a thread on here about [best ballstriker ever], try searching for ["eamonn darcy"] and you'll probably find it."

Thank you!!!
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Now and then I omit the out toss, and my ball striking suffers. Things improve immediately when I go back to it, but I don't have much success when I face my palm directly backward. What is the reason for doing so? My grip is neutral.

Could you expand on "not much success"? Does that mean shanks, hooks, or something else?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The "palm away" idea was to make sure folks didn't go too much "karate chop" with the right hand, but that "karate chop" motion is much closer to ideal.

I think that Bert is an arm tugger just like me, and when he removes this damaging move (through the out toss) he hits it better.

Simple as that.
 
I don't use "hump the goat." Italians can do better than goats.


You are correct in the terminology department. There is a lot of terminology in golf instruction these days.

For your information, and the information of others on this site, all of that is going to change. Right now doing a search isn't that hard.

Did anybody read this post above? I do use the search option when I'm interested in finding something out. However, this site has it's own language when describing golf swing techniques. The glossary was just a suggestion (I thought a good one) and it obviously pissed off some of the clique.

Plus, you tend to get multiple interpretations by different people trying to explain what the terminology / euphemism used actually means. I've seen several times when Brian had to do a video in a thread to explain what he really meant because the meaning of a technique got so twisted.

We'll see what the new site looks like and my hope is there will be some attempt to explain / simplify (BY THE ORIGINATOR) the terminology and euphemisms use.

Maybe a cliffsnotes type thing would be great. Otherwise your going to require everyone who visits this site to start speaking in tongues. That was my point about insular (on an island). My point has been made and I'll move on. For those whose drawers got caught up in a knot, relax it's only golf......
 
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Jwat

New
The "palm away" idea was to make sure folks didn't go too much "karate chop" with the right hand, but that "karate chop" motion is much closer to ideal.

I think that Bert is an arm tugger just like me, and when he removes this damaging move (through the out toss) he hits it better.

Simple as that.

Would the "karate chop" with the right hand help with underplane hands?
 
Did anybody read this post above? I do use the search option when I'm interested in finding something out. However, this site has it's own language when describing golf swing techniques. The glossary was just a suggestion (I thought a good one) and it obviously pissed off some of the clique.

Plus, you tend to get multiple interpretations by different people trying to explain what the terminology / euphemism used actually means. I've seen several times when Brian had to do a video in a thread to explain what he really meant because the meaning of a technique got so twisted.

We'll see what the new site looks like and my hope is there will be some attempt to explain / simplify (BY THE ORIGINATOR) the terminology and euphemisms use.

Maybe a cliffsnotes type thing would be great. Otherwise your going to require everyone who visits this site to start speaking in tongues. That was my point about insular (on an island). My point has been made and I'll move on. For those whose drawers got caught up in a knot, relax it's only golf......

And to those who will not support the work done here by buying the videos, relax, it is only money.
 

Burner

New
That was my point.:rolleyes:

Which, I thought, I was emphasising. :rolleyes:
sCo_hmmthink.gif
 
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