Pitfalls of a flat shoulder turn?

[gmbtempe]

The steepish shoulder turn with the hands pulled very deep is en vogue right now and I definitely know of some issues with that move, but what type of problems does a a flat shoulder turn create? Underplane? OTT move?

How do you know if you are to flat with the shoulders?

Is there any advantage with a flatish shoulder turn?

 

[SteveT]

A 'flatish' shoulder turn means your torso is more erect ... which in turn means your arms must be restrained downwards otherwise you will be windmilling and need a much longer club.

 

[gmbtempe]

I am confused by the term "restrained downwards", can you describe that in more detail?

 

[natep]

I have noticed that when I use a flatish shoulder turn my right shoulder gets way too low on the downswing into impact. When I make a steeper shoulder turn I can make my same aggressive move (with lots of axis tilt) on the downswing and since my right shoulder starts off higher it has less time to get too low.

At least thats my hypothesis so far. I'm not 100% sure why it works better yet.

 

[SteveT]

I am confused by the term "restrained downwards", can you describe that in more detail?

You've got to pull your hands in closer to your body in the downswing, if you want to retain the club.

 

[gmbtempe]

I have noticed that when I use a flatish shoulder turn my right shoulder gets way too low on the downswing into impact. When I make a steeper shoulder turn I can make my same aggressive move (with lots of axis tilt) on the downswing and since my right shoulder starts off higher it has less time to get too low.

At least thats my hypothesis so far. I'm not 100% sure why it works better yet.

This is one of the reasons I posted this.

I find the flatish shoulder turn is better for my swing other than the right shoulder drops and creates shoulders at the delivery position that are just too steep, and you also tend to get slide with that move and drop under plane.

 

[natep]

I suspect that the steeper shoulder turn makes it less likely that I swing too far right, when I make the flatter shoulder turn I'm susceptible to hitting rat-ass unplayable hooks.

 

[StevePratt]

Good observation Natep. There is a precise shoulder plane one should seek for the best results. A flatter turn would indicate an inefficient hip motion. The golfer would now be off plane no matter where their shaft goes. From there you have two choices - a) drop down under and push/hook everything, or b) finish the figure 8 loop by spinning flat shouldered on the downswing, in which case you can miss both directions and hit a lot of thin shots. Your shoulders would no longer be on the plane into the ball but more on a baseball plane.

In either case, you will be directionally challenged and hit the ball in the sweet spot less often. The most efficient shoulder steepness is just a bit more than 30 degrees.

 

[birly-shirly]

Good thread. Or in my case, Very Timely Thread.

I just videoed my swing for the first time in a few years at the weekend and the biggest issue that I could see was a flat shoulder turn going back and much steeper shoulders into the ball.

gmbtempe/natep/stevepratt - you all seem to have given this more prior thought that I have.

As a believer in tackling one thing at a time, my plan of action was to work on the downswing shoulder plane first. I think the downswing plane is more dramatically out of whack than my backswing turn.

My hope is that I can find a downswing pivot that is much flatter than what I currently have, but not quite as flat as my backswing turn.

If I can do this, I'm hopeful of fixing the path and lowpoint issues that I know are there - I just hadn't diagnosed them as the result of shoulder and pivot action. I hadn't really got beyond thinking of arms and hands until I saw the video footage.

In the longer term, I would plan on steepening my backswing turn as well - aiming for a consistent plane of shoulder turn back and through.

Any thoughts on this plan of action for the short and longer term?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here are some examples of a flat shoulder turn:

Some folks play better this way, and lots of them are "regular golfers."

To me, the worse this that could happen is you get ridiculed by the white belters.

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[siksta]

Like the pics above great players have had flat shoulder turns. Ian Woosman comes to mind with a flat follow thru hit the ball a long way. Mixing flat to steep or visa versa would tend to lead toward direction problems. Most people dont have the guns at the bottom of the swing for flattish turns thats why we see arm swingers on all the ranges. Both methods work one requires a lot of maintenance the other not.

 

[gmbtempe]

For the record here is a picture of mine at the top last friday.

 

[leon]

For the record here is a picture of mine at the top last friday.

Hey, you've got one of those line drawing programs Brian likes

Do you have a pic of your setup. You look like you might be a bit close to the ball. I get in that position a lot and think it might be one reason for my super flat backswing.

 

[SteveT]

For the record here is a picture of mine at the top last friday.

New Forum Policy for posting golfswing pictures and videos:

ALL swings must be done only wearing Fruit of the Looms and golf shoes only (short socks optional and no head covering) ... so that your body type and structure is out in plain view. Clothing tends to hide and camouflage problems and must therefore be removed for proper evaluation.

I think everybody will agree to this logical policy, because it's the only scientifically valid thing to do.

You first ...

 

[softconsult]

Leon wrote,"You look like you might be a bit close to the ball. I get in that position a lot and think it might be one reason for my super flat backswing."

This seems backwards to me. When I stand closer to the ball, my backswing is more upright. Farther away more flat.

 

[leon]

Leon wrote,"You look like you might be a bit close to the ball. I get in that position a lot and think it might be one reason for my super flat backswing."

This seems backwards to me. When I stand closer to the ball, my backswing is more upright. Farther away more flat.

You're right, it is backward. I think my specific problem is being so close that my left arm is more to my side than in front of the body so the only way for it to go is out and around, driven by the shoulders with a really flat turn.

But given that you make so much sense, I'm thinking this is caused by something else wrong in my setup

 

[Kevin Shields]

For the record here is a picture of mine at the top last friday.

From this position early unwind or earlt tilt would not be good.

 

[gmbtempe]

From this position early unwind or earlt tilt would not be good.

Do you think its within the range to play good golf?

I have to move the right shoulder out or it gets under with excess tilt. I have kinda given up on getting to the elbow plane and seem to hit the TSP much better. It was ok in these but much better yesterday after I worked on some drills to get the right shoulder to move out. Still from a year ago its pretty much night and day.

 

[gmbtempe]

New Forum Policy for posting golfswing pictures and videos:

ALL swings must be done only wearing Fruit of the Looms and golf shoes only (short socks optional and no head covering) ... so that your body type and structure is out in plain view. Clothing tends to hide and camouflage problems and must therefore be removed for proper evaluation.

I think everybody will agree to this logical policy, because it's the only scientifically valid thing to do.

You first ...

No, think I will skip the Mac O Grady look today.

 

[gmbtempe]

Hey, you've got one of those line drawing programs Brian likes

Do you have a pic of your setup. You look like you might be a bit close to the ball. I get in that position a lot and think it might be one reason for my super flat backswing.

Leon,

setup



Its pretty much a conscious choice to swing flatter, here is a different pattern with a steeper turn. I am just wonder what the pitfalls are, should it be steeper. It seems rather personal choice but I would imagine there is some science behind which is better.