Pitfalls of a flat shoulder turn?

[Brian Manzella]

...I think flat vs steep shoulder turn has been debated to death on here. I didn't catch most of it, but from memory steeper shoulders might give you more clubhead speed, but with more potential for loss of accuracy.....

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Dead Wrong.

Way off.

No chance of being correct.

Silly.

Goofy.

Spin at best.

And trust me, ANYTHING that me and the literalists agree on, mark it down.

ej20 wrote, "I think shoulder turn is like the plane of the golf club.Some have it a little steep,some have it a little flat.Both works.Find the one suitable for you.

Either way though,the shoulder turn has to be flat on the transition."

Your last sentence has me scratching my head. I don't see how a steeper shoulder turn gets to flat on transition. Further expanation, please.

Needs to be steeper obviously.

The trick is when....

 

[ej20]

ej20 wrote, "I think shoulder turn is like the plane of the golf club.Some have it a little steep,some have it a little flat.Both works.Find the one suitable for you.

Either way though,the shoulder turn has to be flat on the transition."

Your last sentence has me scratching my head. I don't see how a steeper shoulder turn gets to flat on transition. Further expanation, please.

In most good players,the shoulders flatten to start the downswing.The right shoulder drops substantially while the left lifts a bit.If the right shoulder stays high like in most hackers,there's your OTT move right there.

In most good players,it doesn't matter whether the backswing shoulder turn is flat or steep.The downswing shoulder turn will be flatter than the backswing.A steep backswing shoulder turn will usually result in coming down the turned shoulder plane.A flatter backswing shoulder turn will usually result in coming down the elbow plane.I'm talking good players here,not hackers.

 

[softconsult]

OK, the word flat in your original post versus flatter in your last post caused
my confusion.

 

[Quigss]

In most good players,it doesn't matter whether the backswing shoulder turn is flat or steep.The downswing shoulder turn will be flatter than the backswing.

??? OK, is this accurate?? I'm getting dizzy...I've always had better accuracy and distance with a flatter backswing and then a steeper downswing through impact, with the right shoulder going down the turned shoulder plane into impact. At the transition, I guess the shoulders flatten when the hands drop, but during impact the shoulders are steeper.

Am I a hacker?? Difficult to say, depends on who I'm playing with...better players, probably yes, typical players probably no...I play to a 9.

Help on this one please?

 

[ej20]

??? OK, is this accurate?? I'm getting dizzy...I've always had better accuracy and distance with a flatter backswing and then a steeper downswing through impact, with the right shoulder going down the turned shoulder plane into impact. At the transition, I guess the shoulders flatten when the hands drop, but during impact the shoulders are steeper.

Am I a hacker?? Difficult to say, depends on who I'm playing with...better players, probably yes, typical players probably no...I play to a 9.

Help on this one please?

I did say most,not all.There will always be exceptions to the rule.Ben Curtis has a high right shoulder and he's a PGA tour player.

 

[ej20]

An example of a high right shoulder,steep shoulder turn transition.

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[ej20]

An example of the right shoulder dropping to flatten the shoulder plane transition.

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[Quigss]

Thanks ej20!

Those two videos do a great job of showing the differences in the transition. Nice to see it rather than just visualizing it. I have a habit of bringing the club "underplane" during the downswing, so keeping the back shoulder "feeling" like it is working on plane in the transition and into the downswing seems to help keep the club more on plane. Also, maybe I should look at the NHA video again and see if Brain mentions anything about this in it. Thanks again.

 

[gmbtempe]

I see some real issues with Curtis' move....

For me it seems as long as I dont allow the left shoulder to abruptly come up (accomplished by a pushing down motion of the left shoulder) I steepen the shaft and come in very much on plane. The more I swing left the straighter the ball goes, slight fade.

 

[StevePratt]

The two causes of an overly flat shoulder turn are 1) not enough incline at the hip joint. Around 30 degrees is ideal. This positions your body on plane with the ball. 2) An inefficient hip motion going back where the hips spin in place (golfer is trying to turn in a barrel - the 'single axis pivot')...

The gentleman that posted his pictures a few pages ago...can you see at the top he is much less than a 30 degree incline? And then on the way down, he actually bows down into it at the hips, looking much better into the ball.

Now some of the videos esteemed Mr. Manzella offered did not look overly flat shouldered to me. Somewhere between 32 and 35 degrees at the top is ideal.

Hogan was also flat shouldered at the top because he set up with little incline at the hips. However, once he started down, he suddenly 'went down to get it' and increased the hip flexion to 30 degrees in the slot. Which of course begs the question, 'why didn't he just start there?'

I wonder if Moe Norman did the same thing...I must go back and watch that one.

 

[ej20]

Hogan was also flat shouldered at the top because he set up with little incline at the hips. However, once he started down, he suddenly 'went down to get it' and increased the hip flexion to 30 degrees in the slot. Which of course begs the question, 'why didn't he just start there?'

I think he preferred higher hands at address.A lot of players find the Mac O'Grady bent over,low hands address a bit awkward....and Mac does the opposite of Hogan,he raises up a bit on the backswing...probably because he sets up too bent over.

 

[gmbtempe]

I think he preferred higher hands at address.A lot of players find the Mac O'Grady bent over,low hands address a bit awkward....and Mac does the opposite of Hogan,he raises up a bit on the backswing...probably because he sets up too bent over.

I don't think Mac does anything in the golf swing that is part of the mechanics without a reason behind it. If he raises up there is a reason behind it, probably a dissertation somewhere on the why.

 

[ej20]

I don't think Mac does anything in the golf swing that is part of the mechanics without a reason behind it. If he raises up there is a reason behind it, probably a dissertation somewhere on the why.

Well,I'm certainly not criticizing what Mac is doing.Great swing,great player.Just pointing out the differences.

Every player is going to have their quirks...in fact,has there been a great player who has been perfectly orthodox?

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Well,I'm certainly not criticizing what Mac is doing.Great swing,great player.Just pointing out the differences.

Every player is going to have their quirks...in fact,has there been a great player who has been perfectly orthodox?

HOGAN.

 

[leon]

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Dead Wrong.

Way off.

No chance of being correct.

Silly.

Goofy.

Spin at best.

So just to clarify, are you saying I was wrong?

In my defense, I did say from memory and right now I'm having a hard time remembering even what day it is! Now I think about it, I think that stuff relates to high vs low hands at the top, which I'd always thought was synonymous with shoulder turn, but I now know thats wrong too. I guess I've got some reading to do.

 

[ej20]

I see some real issues with Curtis' move....

For me it seems as long as I dont allow the left shoulder to abruptly come up (accomplished by a pushing down motion of the left shoulder) I steepen the shaft and come in very much on plane. The more I swing left the straighter the ball goes, slight fade.

Well,the high right shoulder is uncommon on the tour but it's not a death move otherwise Curtis wouldn't be making tons of money.

I have thought about it and perhaps the reason why more pros drop their right shoulder is because the majority of them use a snap release.Sweep releasers,in the case of Curtis bothering on casting,need a higher right shoulder otherwise they would hit the ground a foot behind the ball.You can't drop the right shoulder and release early.Releasing early is also not necessarily a death move as long as you don't flip as well.