pivot question

Status
Not open for further replies.
BB is a quirky fellow. It makes him feel in control to write up here and push the

Bronco,
Why don't you put your message where it's supposed to be?....:(

Your statement is not neccessarily correct...as the release is not instantaneous....

debate in circles. Its the same reason he types in all caps, misspells the same common words over and over, ends every post with have fun with your knowledge, etc... your responding to him just entertains and encourages him.
 
I don't usually agree with much you say, as a matter of opinion, but on this one...

debate in circles. Its the same reason he types in all caps, misspells the same common words over and over, ends every post with have fun with your knowledge, etc... your responding to him just entertains and encourages him.

you are dead on :).
 
My response......... ;)

Well, first of all let me say that I have great respect for Brian as a teacher and the quality of information/participation/participants on this site. I also would never involve myself in a thread on this site out of respect to Brian and his opinions/teachings. However, one of my students linked me to this thread and as footage of MY swing is used in this thread and MY opinions on the golf swing are posted within it (although INcorrectly) I do feel the need to at least reply in some form. I hope all who read this will understand the motivation for this post and respect that I'm not trying to cause any problems within this thread. In fact, I've stated over and over again the following......

"IMOP there are 3 really good teachers that I know of in LA, Rob Noel, Chuck Winstead, and Brian Manzellla"

In FACT I've recommended Brian to several people from the New Orleans/Baton Rouge areas. This was based on what Jimmy K told me in regards to Brian's teachings/thoughts/methods during his 4 day visit here a couple of years ago.....btw, ALL of which I agreed with 100%. I might not teach in the exact same manner as Brian nor would I most probably believe 100% in Brian's opinion of the most efficient way of swinging a golf club (in theory) to produce BOTH power AND accuracy, but, I certainly very much respect his opinions. (however, it sure wouldn't surprise me, once we had a face to face opportunity to "visit," if we didn't see eye to eye for the most part) Anyway, this will be my first and most probably only post as it's not my site and I respect Brian's opinions, etc.





First of all, I've NEVER said that I DISagree with the theory of a "kinetic chain." In fact I KNOW that certain components of a human body WILL slow while others will speed up. They MUST as certain parts have a limited range of motion while others are not limited nearly as much. (for example, the range of motion of the hips is roughly 1/2 that of the shoulders) There are also WILDY differing abilities/flexibility between INDIVIDUALS as well as certain swing "styles" that lend themselves to identical components working in varying manners, to varying degrees, and sometimes in VERY different manners/sequencing. IMOP most of this variation is due to differences in individuals and what IS required for the clubface to have the opportunity to attack from reasonable angles and to impact the ball in a position so as to promote both a powerful and accurate ball flight. (IMOP, the DOWNswing sequencing is nothing more than a REACTION to the SET UP and backswing........."a player does certain things in their set up/backswing and certain things MUST occur in their downswings to create a fundamentally sound impact zone/angles".......I also feel VERY strongly that in the best swings the DOWNswing is a REACTION and involves lil' or no conscious thought beyond, at most, a simple PRE-shot swing key/thought)

What I have said is that I think it is a mistake to CONSCIOUSLY attempt to slow one part of the body and then CONSCIOUSLY attempt to speed up another. A "mistake" in that ANYtime a player TRY'S to CONSCIOUSLY "slow" anything and CONSCIOUSLY "speed up" something in the DOWNSWING an element of UNnecessary "timing" WILL be involved. UNnecessary in that the swing could be improved so that NO CONSCIOUS "slowing and speeding up" would be necessary to strike the ball in a compressed manner resulting in a powerful and ACCURATE golf shots and in a RELIABLE manner. Something which, again IMOP, IS a NECESSITY if a person desires to COMPETE under pressure. A downswing, in ALL good golf swings, takes less than ONE second and, IMOP, better involve as lil' CONSCIOUS thought as is humanly possible. A SINGLE downswing swing key that was focused upon BEFORE the club is taken back is fantastic, but, to try and focus on TWO things at once when both are in motion and occurring in a microflash is UNrealistic at best, and folly at worst........again, IMOP. I believe that the most efficient golf swings involve a downswing sequence that is nothing more than an UNconscious REACTION to what occurred in the backswing. The most important thing is for the player to get the SET UP and BACKswing correct........then the rest is more or less a reaction.......AGAIN, IMOP........ ;)

I've also stated that I disagree with the term "snapping the kinetic chain." To the AVERAGE golfer this implys that he/she needs to "slam on the brakes" and "snap/crack" the golf club/shaft like some sort of horse whip and do all this from well inside the intended line of flight. Do certain players do this? I have NO doubt that some do and the ball might well go a LOOOOONG way. However, will it go a long way in a CONSISTENTLY ACCURATE manner? Not IMOP as there is too much face rotation IN the impact zone. It's a recipe for BIG blocks and BIG hooks with a few GREAT shots mixed in there somewhere. If a person wants to be the guy who everyone talks about their "350 yard drive on 14" then this "type" of swing might well work. However, if a person wishes to have em' all talkin' about the 65 they just shot, I have my doubts...... ;)

In my experience/opinion the GREATEST ballstrikers, those that could, do, and did strike the golf ball with great accuracy and adequate distance under extreme pressure, certainly didn't TRY and "snap" anything. Now, did/do great ballstrikers have certain parts of their anatomy slowing down as that particular parts range of motion or muscular reaction dissipated while another part continued to accelerate, without question this certainly does occur and I've known it for probably 20 years and it's in ALL the truly good golf swings that I've helped develop.........the player just doesn't know it. (but I do ;)) However, IMOP, in the great swingers it was a REACTION and not something done consciously. THAT is what I have to say about "snapping kinetic chains." (at least in this venue)

I've also seen it written in this thread (and insinuated by people who know NOT of what they speak) that I teach a golf swing type that involves nothing but a continuous spin of the body with all parts moving at the same rate and at the same time with the arms/club "going left" as if to say I teach some type of "spin out/over" move with the arms/club being "drug" by the body. Nothing could be FURTHER from the truth. However, this is NOT the venue to explain what I do believe as this is Brian's site and not mine. I will do so at the appropriate time and in the appropriate environment. I will say this, I have had 4 people with graduate level/doctorate level degrees in physics/mechanical engineering visit here in the past year ALL of whom also know a bit about BOTH the laws of physics AND the golf swing. They have upon viewing the footage and hearing from MY mouth what I believe, to a man, agreed 100% with my explanations as to the physics involved. As a result I'm VERY comfortable with whatever "my PREFERRED method" of swinging a golf club "is" and that it will/does pass muster when it comes to "the physics." ;)

In conclusion and most importantly, I KNOW whatever it is that I do works and produces VERY good golf swings that consistently produce quality golf shots and under extreme pressure. "RESULTS don't lie, people do"...... ;)

Again, I'm submitting this post with the greatest of respect for Brian and this site simply in hopes of clarifying a bit MY position in regards to the subject matter involved. Please also remember I was brought into this thread without my knowledge, etc.

I hope one and all enjoy a Merry Christmas/Hannakuh/"Holiday Season" :)

Geoff Jones........aka "slicefixer"
 
Last edited:

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Here's the deal.

You can't sped up ANYTHING by slowing down—or STOPPING—anything.

The way the Kinetic Chain REALLY WORKS, an I apologize if if I have communicated it in any other way, is that the FOLLOWING SEGMENT uses the PRECEDING SEGMENT to "push off of" so-to-speak, to gain speed. This slows, or sometime dramatically slows, the preceding segment. When this is done to great degree like in a Sergio, Finney, Danny Lee, they can be said to—in Manzella-eze—to have "SNAPPED" their Kinetic Chain.

Now, you can LEARN to SEPARATE THE FEELS and CONTROL of separate segments by STOPPING or really slowing down others. I have had great success with teaching this way. At the end of the upgrade, the student/golfer simply feels like he is "shooting the marble down the tube."

As far as any reference to "Slicefixer" on this thread, I'd be welcome to edit anything that is incorrectly written. I hate to be misquoted as well.

I like what I teach, I really don't care much what anyone else does, and I think I am always on the cutting edge.

Usually, for the last few years, we totally ignore most other teachers. It has worked fine, but in this case, if we mentioned folks who are against the concept of snapping the chain, we only apologize if it was done incorrectly.

I love teachers who think they can teach.

Maybe one day, TrackMan will have a national teach-off, and I'll have something else to help me pay off my house.;)

But, trust me Geoff, they wouldn't be a lot of "chain snapping" in a "teach-off" with brand new students.

The D-Plane, hands, and Pivot would be where most of my work would be done.

Just like everyday on the lesson tee.

BManz:cool:
 

Guitar Hero

New member
You can't sped up ANYTHING by slowing down—or STOPPING—anything.

The way the Kinetic Chain REALLY WORKS, an I apologize if if I have communicated it in any other way, is that the FOLLOWING SEGMENT uses the PRECEDING SEGMENT to "push off of" so-to-speak, to gain speed. This slows, or sometime dramatically slows, the preceding segment. When this is done to great degree like in a Sergio, Finney, Danny Lee, they can be said to—in Manzella-eze—to have "SNAPPED" their Kinetic Chain.

Now, you can LEARN to SEPARATE THE FEELS and CONTROL of separate segments by STOPPING or really slowing down others. I have had great success with teaching this way. At the end of the upgrade, the student/golfer simply feels like he is "shooting the marble down the tube."

As far as any reference to "Slicefixer" on this thread, I'd be welcome to edit anything that is incorrectly written. I hate to be misquoted as well.

I like what I teach, I really don't care much what anyone else does, and I think I am always on the cutting edge.

Usually, for the last few years, we totally ignore most other teachers. It has worked fine, but in this case, if we mentioned folks who are against the concept of snapping the chain, we only apologize if it was done incorrectly.

I love teachers who think they can teach.

Maybe one day, TrackMan will have a national teach-off, and I'll have something else to help me pay off my house.;)

But, trust me Geoff, they wouldn't be a lot of "chain snapping" in a "teach-off" with brand new students.

The D-Plane, hands, and Pivot would be where most of my work would be done.

Just like everyday on the lesson tee.

BManz:cool:

The D-Plane, hands, and Pivot are the keys to better golf. Brian’s approach to this is right on and not only for his talent in teaching but the knowledge you can learn about your golf swing. He knows all about the illusions of straight plane lines, tripods and many other modern myths that are still taught today by the so called Top instructors.

Tom Ness had an eye opening story about plane lines at the TGM summit and one of the top golf magazines. The censorship and lies from this magazine is why the Top instructors are getting away with bogus instruction. It is all B.S. and a big con.

If you are reading this thread then you know you are at the right place. It is up to you to spread the word about Brian. Word of mouth is the power you have to stop the nonsense in golf instruction. Talk, email and text everyone you can and spread the word about Brian’s forum. Do it today!
 
Please try to answer this question

Brian,

Assuming everything else is equal in a swing, would a swing have more or less kinetic chain snap if the hips and shoulders are more open at impact?
 
tongzilla stirring things up

Slicefixer's best students who have been taught by Slicefixer for a significant length of time were never taught to consciously slow down any of their body parts in order to achieve the kinetic chain snap. And yet,
1) they can still hit it pretty far;​
2) if Brian were to study their swings he would agree that there is definitely some kinectic chain snap present.​

Therefore, the kinetic chain snap in these students were cultivated because,
1) Slicefixer's method of teaching - which doesn't involve getting the student to try to snap the kinetic chain, and maybe even tries to get the student to do the opposite - can still, at the end of the process, produce golfers who snap the kinetic chain and hit the ball a long way;​

2) These students have an innate ability to swing the club and would have snapped their kinetic chain using almost any teaching method.​
 
Last edited:
I think it is just an athletic move for a lot of people.

I personally didn't pick up golf as fast but other than when I was a little gaffer I don't think I really ever "arms-ed" it swinging a baseball bat.

I was probably simply taught to take a step with my left foot, keep my head back, and take a rip.

Not to mention your athletic instincts just know better if you have any at all.

I don't think I really "arms-ed it" much playing golf either.

Though I did have open clubface issues starting out and an awkward backswing pivot I think I always knew how to "hit it" (downswing move) and always had a "wound up" finish.

I guess the Real Deal is teaching folks who don't know how.

For me, once I fixed my clubface (C.O. Brian Manz and the 1-2 punch that is NSA/Flipper) I learned to "hit it" (generate power with my downswing pivot) even more, better, with more thorough and specific knowledge of what I was doing.

BTW hey Ge-off hope all is well with you.

-Paul

-PDAWG
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top