Pros/Cons of a cupped left wrist at the top

[puttmad]

I am convinced cupping the wrist does very good things and gives reduced unwanted movement. I need to experiment further....

Somewhat silly to dismiss findings unless they conform.

torvine,
take your club up to shoulder height with a cupped left wrist....
Keep everything absolutely still, but just rotate your RIGHT forearm clockwise ( so the right thumb now points away from you)..........
1) watch the clubhead arc and where it goes (outwards, relative to your left forearm line)..
2) watch the left forearm rotate slightly anti-clockwise)..

Now do the same thing, but this time with a flat left wrist...
1) the clubhead will now follow an arc that is in line with the left forearm, the natural pendulum arc around the left wrist ulna joint...
2) there is no rotation of the left forearm......

So, with the first way you will have a tendency to throw the clubhead outwards (off plane) on the downswing, with the second way (FLW) it follows the natural clubhead arc....
Got it?.......

 

[Dariusz J.]

I thought that one can open the clubface relative to the swing arc with excessive pronation of the left forearm...why does cupping the left wrist only makes the clubface open to the arc ? IMHO, it makes the clubhead go up, when the grip is correct...

Cheers

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

cupping the left wrist has it's place but not for any slicer on this planet unless someone band-aided them with a strong grip

 

[dbl]

Maybe I can paraphrase the page 2 issues....Rolling open and/or cupping are dumb/bad moves for millions of golfers and not one to teach to the 80%+ of typical students. Aside from that, for the remaining <20% there may be better patterns and "fixes" than what those those components alone offer.

 

[torvine]

I was a slicer and I have a pretty neutral grip.

I an NOT repeat NOT knocking this site, as this site has lead me to this, with the excellent NSA dvd I could hit the ball very well but I could not execute power or speed.

Having played to a very high standard most raquet sports in which I could naturally without thinking hit hard.

Winding the club up by cupping "for me" allows speed to be injected, no fear or thinking, remembering to cup is the only thought. As this is SO, SO defended on this thread, I think something must be overlooked. I think cupping places the RIGHT hand into the correct delivery position & cupping is a by product.

I need to video but I think I am fairly square to the plane, going beyond the plane "opening" further just seems to add speed or torque.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

torvine,

some slicers decide to fix their slice by going to a stronger grip and thus will need a more cupped wrist. This is an option but one the manzella academy doesn't use in 99% of cases because it doesn't teach the golfer real clubface control and you are band-aiding them.

most of the time these types of golfers solve their slice problem by becoming what we call 'leakage hookers' which are basically slicers who have figured out how to play a pretty reliable flip draw but with inconsistency in their ballstriking because of their big flip to play this type of shot.

 

[pecky987]

torvine,

some slicers decide to fix their slice by going to a stronger grip and thus will need a more cupped wrist. This is an option but one the manzella academy doesn't use in 99% of cases because it doesn't teach the golfer real clubface control and you are band-aiding them.

most of the time these types of golfers solve their slice problem by becoming what we call 'leakage hookers' which are basically slicers who have figured out how to play a pretty reliable flip draw but with inconsistency in their ballstriking because of their big flip to play this type of shot.

thats something that bugs me.

what about all those good players who do grip it stronger. i dont mean slightly stronger than neutral, i mean like azinger and carl wolter (long driver).

these guys must have developed way to play early in their development and obviously hit it very well with this strong grip.

i guess what im saying is are there any players who would actually benefit from being TAUGHT a strong grip? or is it best if they just sorta learn it themselves

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

imo and i believe brian's too it's better to learn using a neutral grip and to learn how to properly strike a club THEN you can move to any type of grip you want. The problem with really strong grips is it requires a lot of compensations if your swing and through the ball to keep from hooking it

 

[Tball88]

Jim/Brian, I know many of you prefer a neutral grip and a flat left wrist at the top. I don't know if it's just me, but my natural tendency is to really shut the face coming into impact. I don't always know if I just have "fast hands" or if I'm more shut at the top then I realize.

I especially have a habit of hitting face pulls with my short irons. Divot is as straight as an arrow, but you can tell from the shape of the divot the face has shut dramatically through impact.

Also I have a tendency to get a bit flat on my backswing, cupping the wrist for some reason gets me a little more on plane.

With that being said, am I just in that 15% you talk about, Or should I be taking a different approach.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

neutral as i've come to find out doesn't always mean so neutral that a perfectly flat left wrist matches the clubface; you can be slightly stronger than that and play with a slight cup which is almost impossible to catch, it looks like you're making a fist.

 

[pecky987]

neutral as i've come to find out doesn't always mean so neutral that a perfectly flat left wrist matches the clubface; you can be slightly stronger than that and play with a slight cup which is almost impossible to catch, it looks like you're making a fist.

i've always thought that because i physically cant make a dead neutral grip.

i always end up with the heel pad on the side of the shaft, and in an attempt to hold it securley i end up with a stronger grip.

i've never played with a neutral grip, and i personally dont like it. i find that when i or other people i have played with cant do it. when they do they end up with a poor, palmy grip that limits power and consistency.

altough i was always confused when i see tiger, and vijay and jack and DT and others at the top with a dead flat wrist and a perfectly matching clubface

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Then i'd work with you to accomodate your physical problem, one of my former students has a hard time getting the heel pad on top and we modified his grip and also went to thinner grips to help with the problem

 

[birdie_man]

I actually got a real good fade goin last round with a **GASP** cupped left wrist.

Actually- it FELT cupped.....considering I have always been arched it probably was plain FLAT. (which is more than fine too so long as she works) Whatever it is, I will have to see video.

Anyhoo I was fading it so good I can't believe it. If this keeps working (and I don't see why not) I will need to learn how to draw it again. (who woulda thunk it)

Unlike when I usually try it, I could control the face (direction, that is) very well and did not hit many shanks this time around. (I shanked one open-faced lob that I probably didn't need to have open-faced- I think I sensed it and automatically tried to deloft in the downswing) But this time I am not trying to lean the shaft way forward either. (with this new D-Plane stuff)

Pretty good ballstriking and a very nice fade (which has been priority #1 for me lately) until I started fiddling too much, trying to relearn how to hit a draw when I wanted to.

Fingers crossed.....fades are nice. Hooray for, I guess, (more) orthodoxy. (is that a freakin word?)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Who needs to twist?

After 26 years of teaching golf, I have found the following to be representative numbers of all the golfers I have seen and continue to see:

<40% - Can line three balls up perpendicular to the target about 4 inches apart each, and hit the middle ball solid, taking a divot or scrape past the line of balls.

<25% of the above (<10% total) can do the above drill correctly, and hit three consecutive shots that hook or draw doing it

​

If I had to bet, my numbers are probably too generous, my colleagues who probably say there are less than 10% of all golfers who make a divot in front of the ball, and can do it hitting a draw or hook.

So what?

So, this elite group of golfers, no matter how they arrived in this group, are the group that has contributed to the state of poor golf instruction, albeit through no fault of their own.

Why?

Because, all sorts of silly ideas that might work on this group, would be a disaster for the other 90%+ of golfers. Even completely orthodox procedures may be death moves for this super majority.

None of these moves will destroy most of the 90%+ faster, than a attempt to rotate the clubface open at first parallel to a "toe up" location, and then continue to rotate the left arm and golf club to a slightly "laid off" and somewhat "cupped" left wrist at the top of the backswing.

One of the first things I learned to do when I starting teaching at age 20, was fix the slice. A flat left wrist at the top, and no reverse pivot were the early cures, all the other additions that became the "Never Slice Again 2.0" pattern were added while I tried to make car payments on teaching results alone.

The whole-swing "twistaway" concept is THE way to fix golfers who have never come close to passing the two tests above.

But!

I have given lessons where after 10 minutes, I could start to temper the whole swing twist. First place to start this tempering is at the top of the swing. De-Arching by having the left thumb under will help most "new" pull-hookers hit it where they are looking. The same left-thumb under at last parallel, will de-arch the the other small percentage still hooking too much.

Eventually, the NSA2 pattern, looks like many famous golfers.

Never Slice Again 3 will do a better job in many areas, most especially explaining "Who need to twist."

 

[Kevin Shields]

As a group. we aren't still treating a cupped left wrist as if it opens the clubface, are we? I seem to have read alot of the posts in this thread that are associating the cup with an open face.

 

[Burner]

As a group. we aren't still treating a cupped left wrist as if it opens the clubface, are we? I seem to have read alot of the posts in this thread that are associating the cup with an open face.

Irrespective, lets not forget, as a group, that a whole load of this left wrist cupping is the by product of right wrist cocking - nothing more and nothing less.

 

[self-mastery]

If it works, then use it.

 

[birdie_man]

As a group. we aren't still treating a cupped left wrist as if it opens the clubface, are we? I seem to have read alot of the posts in this thread that are associating the cup with an open face.

We had a big thread on this before DD. Brian came in and I think said the basic deal is that when you cup your left wrist at the top it opens the face to your downswing plane.

I'd never been able to explain why until then but to me, cupped at the top has always plain felt to be more open too. (I do presume I am not alone)

I know what you mean though.....cause independently (at address or through impact are most obvious) bending the left wrist does close the face.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Bending the left wrist at the top opens the clubface because some rolling of the wrists opening the clubface is also necessary to actually get to the top when doing this, which makes it a different situation than when the left wrist is simply bent flipped at address. There has been a thread about how this happens before if you want to search it.

But some people (mostly low handicappers who hit draws) use the wrist cupping at the top to make their release through the ball more active which squares up the clubface or slightly closes it through impact. If those same guys have a flat left wrist at the top they feel very passive with their wrists and often don't release them enough and leave the clubface open at impact and start hitting slices. I've seen multiple cases of this. I think this would happen to a guy like Ogilvy if he tried to keep his wrist flat at the top.

 

[jenhaoyen]

Bending the left wrist at the top opens the clubface because some rolling of the wrists opening the clubface is also necessary to actually get to the top when doing this, which makes it a different situation than when the left wrist is simply bent flipped at address. There has been a thread about how this happens before if you want to search it.

But some people (mostly low handicappers who hit draws) use the wrist cupping at the top to make their release through the ball more active which squares up the clubface or slightly closes it through impact. If those same guys have a flat left wrist at the top they feel very passive with their wrists and often don't release them enough and leave the clubface open at impact and start hitting slices. I've seen multiple cases of this. I think this would happen to a guy like Ogilvy if he tried to keep his wrist flat at the top.

i don't know if that's true because i was a cupped wrist then a flat wrist now back to cupped wrist. It's not easy to hit fade / slice with those flat wrist. I have to literraly draw a line acrossfrom my right eye to my left foot and hit it that way to get a fade. Where as if i have a cupped wrist i can cut those balls much more easier.