Quiros' Swing, Elbow Plane, Biomechanics, and NEW Manzella BLOG!

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vjsinger

vjsinger

New
mgranato said:
I could be a poster child for this topic.

My index was a steady +3 when my downswing was on the TSP - although I had no idea at the time what a TSP or EP was. I just made what was for me a natural downswing that let me hit the ball the best. Basically a self-taught swing that looked pretty orthodox.

Because of my ignorance about the different swings, I allowed myself to be convinced that I needed to get to the EP to get to the next level. I spent my last 2+ seasons trying to get there. My 100 yards and in shots were the first to go, then my irons, and lastly my distance - which was the only thing in golf that came really "easy" for me. My last 2 seasons were frustrating struggles, 70 one day followed by 80 the next.

This golfing purgatory coincided with a injured back. Being so frustrated with golf, I gave it up in November '08 and had back surgery in April '09. During my recovery time I spent hours reading the archives from this forum. Bingo! I finally realized why my game went to pot. The one thing about my swing that I did very naturally, I stupidly changed. I'm now back relearning how to score again, and also back on the TSP.

No doubt in my mind that if I hadn't stumbled across Brian's post about Phil and Tiger/natural TSPers and EPers, I would have quit the game for good. Golf is a miserable game if there's not light at the end of the tunnel. :)
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Very good post. I have a question for you and anyone...Why do you think you naturally swing on the TSP? My theory on this is that more big chested, naturally athletic guys do this. I also always thought that most good baseball players swing on the TSP naturally....thoughts?
 
R

rogerdodger

New
vjsinger said:
Very good post. I have a question for you and anyone...Why do you think you naturally swing on the TSP? My theory on this is that more big chested, naturally athletic guys do this. I also always thought that most good baseball players swing on the TSP naturally....thoughts?
Click to expand...

Here is my theory, when you start out playing as a kid and your clubs are too long and too heavy, you tend to swing on the elbow plane or below. This happened to me, and I constantly fight a downswing below the elbow plane. Players who are stronger while developing their games tend to swing on the tsp, ie, Craig Stadler.
 
E

ej20

New
I think the elbow plane is superior as most good players do it but I also agree that it's very difficult to get a natural TSPlaner onto the elbow plane.I think for some reason,it holds the lag better and more effortlessly

If Dariusz has a full proof way then I would like to hear it and see some evidence that it can be done.

We just gotta accept and live with some of the things we were born with.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
LOL....this thread is retarded i'm sorry; i am likening this to building a motor to make a whole bunch of horsepower:

I had 1 friend who built a 1200hp twin turbo small block chevy on PUMP GAS 93 octane. Had the best of EVERYTHING; i believe even was in some magazines (if interesteed look up montygwilliams.com). Then i had another friend that was quite the DIYer who had a "thrown together" low budget ford 351W with a couple of slapped on turbos that used (i forget the name) some really heavy ass thick steel piping for headers and that thing made over 1000hp on pump gas too.

Maybe the vette had the superior motor and was "done right" but guess what? The mustang motor never broke, was driven to the track on street tires with the top down, switched to slicks and ran consistent low 9 second passes. The 'stang had a small % of what was in the vette but it really didn't make it any better.

Elbow plane - Hogan
Nicklaus - TSP

Does it really matter? Would Nickalus have won 25 majors if he was on the elbow plane? Would my life be easier if i was born a girl? No one will ever know. There's a big difference in what IS "the best" (assuming Dariusz is right from a biomechanical standpoint) and what IS "the best" for the STUDENT and their enjoyment of the game.

I'm out :)
 
Matt 4-L

Matt 4-L

New
I have been reading through this mamouth thread and have a question. It has been stated that switching to the eep from the tsp can wreak havoc on some swings but can it be just what the doctor ordered for others? I swing on the tsp but I wouldn't consider myself a great ball striker, could swinging on the eep be something to try?
 
vjsinger

vjsinger

New
rogerdodger said:
Here is my theory, when you start out playing as a kid and your clubs are too long and too heavy, you tend to swing on the elbow plane or below. This happened to me, and I constantly fight a downswing below the elbow plane. Players who are stronger while developing their games tend to swing on the tsp, ie, Craig Stadler.
Click to expand...

That makes sense to me. It's funny, I haven't played for long and ever since I have picked up a club it has been easy for me to create speed through really "hitting" at it hard from the top. I swing on the TSP and would feel really uncomfortable trying anything else.
 
S

spktho

New
Jim Kobylinski said:
LOL....this thread is retarded i'm sorry; i am likening this to building a motor to make a whole bunch of horsepower:

I had 1 friend who built a 1200hp twin turbo small block chevy on PUMP GAS 93 octane. Had the best of EVERYTHING; i believe even was in some magazines (if interesteed look up montygwilliams.com). Then i had another friend that was quite the DIYer who had a "thrown together" low budget ford 351W with a couple of slapped on turbos that used (i forget the name) some really heavy ass thick steel piping for headers and that thing made over 1000hp on pump gas too.

Maybe the vette had the superior motor and was "done right" but guess what? The mustang motor never broke, was driven to the track on street tires with the top down, switched to slicks and ran consistent low 9 second passes. The 'stang had a small % of what was in the vette but it really didn't make it any better.

Elbow plane - Hogan
Nicklaus - TSP

Does it really matter? Would Nickalus have won 25 majors if he was on the elbow plane? Would my life be easier if i was born a girl? No one will ever know. There's a big difference in what IS "the best" (assuming Dariusz is right from a biomechanical standpoint) and what IS "the best" for the STUDENT and their enjoyment of the game.

I'm out :)
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You're right about that analogy to an extent.

The discussion in not that retarded. I am most interested in seeing how and why swinging on the elbow plane is best, because I really don't think that there is a substantial amount of biomechanical advantage to it. Even if that's how Hogan did it.

Just as was presented earlier by Dariusz that the most biomechanical advantagous way to hammer nails is to have the elbow at the side. I can tell you first hand that the best, easiest, and strongest way to hammer nails is to have the material between your legs on the ground and hammer the nail (bent over, with only a slightly bent elbow arm) into the wood by swinging the arm up and down in the direction behind you.
 
G

greenfree

Banned
spktho said:
You're right about that analogy to an extent.

The discussion in not that retarded. I am most interested in seeing how and why swinging on the elbow plane is best, because I really don't think that there is a substantial amount of biomechanical advantage to it. Even if that's how Hogan did it.

Just as was presented earlier by Dariusz that the most biomechanical advantagous way to hammer nails is to have the elbow at the side. I can tell you first hand that the best, easiest, and strongest way to hammer nails is to have the material between your legs on the ground and hammer the nail (bent over, with only a slightly bent elbow arm) into the wood by swinging the arm up and down in the direction behind you.
Click to expand...

Yeah, except for all those nails that don't meet that criteria your going to have to change/adjust your method. Unless your Spiderman.
 
S

spktho

New
greenfree said:
Material on the ground between your legs. What if the material is above your head?:):eek:
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Let's tee a golf ball up there too:eek:

My point was to simulate where a golf ball and nail to be hammered could be in very similar positions. And illustrate a more biomechanically advantageous manner to hammer a nail in that position.
 
G

greenfree

Banned
spktho said:
Let's tee a golf ball up there too:eek:

My point was to simulate where a golf ball and nail to be hammered could be in very similar positions. And illustrate a more biomechanically advantageous manner to hammer a nail in that position.
Click to expand...

You mean between your legs:eek:
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
Dariusz J. said:
Birdie, OK. It seems you tried many different ideas. But you never thought about using ground forces to swing sequentially from the ground up, have you ? about benefitting from the theory of limitations in your hard structure (bones & joints) ? about stopping to trust muscles ? about subduing the motion of distal parts to the main body ? about stopping to trust your arms, hands and fingers ?

Be frank :)

Cheers
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1. Ground forces...I have tried it to an extent..."squeeze the water out of the ground"...

I always thought of that as something one did well naturally if they had a good, efficient (with power-production) pivot.

Admittedly, I have been looking more closely at the role/timing of the feet, hips, shoulders, arms and how/how much/if to use them actively and passively. (particularly the hips)

Years back I found out "left shoulder up" worked for me and have been unable to unseat it yet...but am trying.

3 of my recent threads have basically been about this. These ones:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13032-tilt-hip-motion-affecting-path-etc.html
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13094-nicklaus-vs-trevino-finish.html
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13097-left-handed-frisbee-throw.html

2. Limitations...have not given much thought to it. I presume you are alluding to flexibility training? I could improve but I dunno Dariusz...

3. Trust...?

4. I thought about the "flail(ing arms)" idea for a long time. I still like it in a lot of ways. I still like a LCT...I still like my pivot to lead. (though I still fool with the opposite every now and then...to be honest I do not find it that bad and can still get it out around 300)

5. Trust...yes I have tried trust. I hit it well when I do (of course) but...

Kevin said:
Another thing, elbow plane lovers seem to think (correct me if im wrong) that all TSP swingers are these wide, 1970's style sweeping swingers. I see plenty of pivots that would fit nicely into each type of DS.
Click to expand...

I never thought of that. 70s-style I mean...

I think I can see how the image might come to mind.

Kevin said:
If your left arm cant stay in easily, you uncock your left wrist better than you roll the entire arm and dont have problems with downarching the lead wrist like Cink and Toms, you'll hit it better on the TSP, period.
Click to expand...

Interesting...

And...Toms IS on the TSP though Kevin...? I don't understand.

mgranato said:
I could be a poster child for this topic.

My index was a steady +3 when my downswing was on the TSP - although I had no idea at the time what a TSP or EP was. I just made what was for me a natural downswing that let me hit the ball the best. Basically a self-taught swing that looked pretty orthodox.

Because of my ignorance about the different swings, I allowed myself to be convinced that I needed to get to the EP to get to the next level. I spent my last 2+ seasons trying to get there. My 100 yards and in shots were the first to go, then my irons, and lastly my distance - which was the only thing in golf that came really "easy" for me. My last 2 seasons were frustrating struggles, 70 one day followed by 80 the next.

This golfing purgatory coincided with a injured back. Being so frustrated with golf, I gave it up in November '08 and had back surgery in April '09. During my recovery time I spent hours reading the archives from this forum. Bingo! I finally realized why my game went to pot. The one thing about my swing that I did very naturally, I stupidly changed. I'm now back relearning how to score again, and also back on the TSP.

No doubt in my mind that if I hadn't stumbled across Brian's post about Phil and Tiger/natural TSPers and EPers, I would have quit the game for good. Golf is a miserable game if there's not light at the end of the tunnel. :)
Click to expand...

Good post.

rogerdodger said:
Here is my theory, when you start out playing as a kid and your clubs are too long and too heavy, you tend to swing on the elbow plane or below. This happened to me, and I constantly fight a downswing below the elbow plane. Players who are stronger while developing their games tend to swing on the tsp, ie, Craig Stadler.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Did Stadler start late? Nicklaus did start early though rog...
 
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vjsinger

vjsinger

New
Nicklaus was a multi-sport athlete and pretty good at most things he played from what I've read. Jack was also a thick strong guy, BUT...I'd love to see old swings of Jack when he was a teen. Anyone have that?
 
E

ej20

New
TSP and elbow plane are close to the two extremes in most good golf swings.Why do you have to be one or the other?

What would you call something thats in between?
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
birdie_man said:
1. Ground forces...I have tried it to an extent..."squeeze the water out of the ground"...

I always thought of that as something one did well naturally if they had a good, efficient (with power-production) pivot.

Admittedly, I have been looking more closely at the role/timing of the feet, hips, shoulders, arms and how/how much/if to use them actively and passively. (particularly the hips)

Years back I found out "left shoulder up" worked for me and have been unable to unseat it yet...but am trying.

3 of my recent threads have basically been about this. These ones:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13032-tilt-hip-motion-affecting-path-etc.html
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13094-nicklaus-vs-trevino-finish.html
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13097-left-handed-frisbee-throw.html

2. Limitations...have not given much thought to it. I presume you are alluding to flexibility training? I could improve but I dunno Dariusz...

3. Trust...?

4. I thought about the "flail(ing arms)" idea for a long time. I still like it in a lot of ways. I still like a LCT...I still like my pivot to lead. (though I still fool with the opposite every now and then...to be honest I do not find it that bad and can still get it out around 300)

5. Trust...yes I have tried trust. I hit it well when I do (of course) but...


QUOTE]

No, no. While you have grasped the ground forces not bad, you have completely missed the theory of limitations. You should benefit from your natural limitations = at least in the hard structure - do not ask me about ligaments or muscles. You can create torques and sometimes - overtorques, that can direct your motion vector automatically.
I call it the Sagittal Plane Compression concept being not educated in English how should I call it better...LOL.
PM me if you wanna links :)

Cheers

P.S. Good post, BM, as usually.
Click to expand...
 
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