Quote from Jack Nicklaus talking about Jim Flick

[tongzilla]

Flick was an advocate of practicing hitting a driver while on your knees. You'd be surprised how far and straight you can hit it from your knees. Shows how little you need the body.

Also surprised at how much lie angle does NOT matter to hit it straight for a driver.

The lie angle? Measured when ("set" at what point--in time)? Why does it (i.e. whatever your answer to the first 2 questions is) not matter?

I said it shows lie angle doesn't matter because if you can hit it straight and far on your knees (i.e. super flat lie angle) when the club is designed to be hit from a normal golf posture, then it probably means those titliest drivers with 0.75 deg lie angle adjustments don't matter that much.

 

[lia41985]

I said it shows lie angle doesn't matter because if you can hit it straight and far on your knees (i.e. super flat lie angle) when the club is designed to be hit from a normal golf posture, then it probably means those titliest drivers with 0.75 deg lie angle adjustments don't matter that much.

With what trajectory? With what spin? How far? Perfectly straight?

Golf requires a little more precision and lie angle "management" is part of the equation to executing precise golf shots.

 

[Keefer]

Also surprised at how much lie angle does NOT matter to hit it straight for a driver.

It also shows how little weight shift, hip turn etc., etc., you really need. Many of us hackers were always told weight shift was important. But many of us over did it and you can't over-do the weight shift on your knees.

It really just emphasizes the swing is mostly swinging the club with your hands and arms. The rest is hype. Hitting balls with your feet together shows the same thing.

I've heard stories of people going to the Golf Digest schools in the 70's and coming away much worse than before they went. I personally know a guy who went and heard another story on PGA radio of a golf writer who after going took 5 years to get back to where he was before he went to the golf school.

When did Flick and Toski change to the body reacts to the hands and arms swing philosophy? I know Flick liked the teachings of Percy Boomer who had that opinion as well.

 

[birly-shirly]

Tong had it right first time. He didn't say lie angle DOESN'T matter, he said how LITTLE it matters, which is quite right.

The less loft on the clubface, the less the face angle changes with changes in lie angle.

It's possible to hit a driver fairly straight off your knees - but a shot from a sidehill lie with a wedge needs more adjustment than most people would first think.

Does adjustment in a driver matter? I'd think it's a nice to have. If you can adjust 1-2*, then you can effectively cover the manufacturing margin for error, or tolerance - so you should actually get the set-up that you thought you'd bought. And, if you can adjust in small increments, then maybe you can make adjustments that would otherwise require shaft swaps.

 

[lia41985]

Lie angle is much more important in my mind than what Leo's saying. I'll devote more thought and time to explaining myself more fully later on but I wanted to state my respectful disagreement with his assertion. It'll suffice to say for right now that golf is a side-on game (played at an angle), which is the lie angle. How could it not be very important? Again, I'll do my best to post more later.

 

[Dariusz J.]

It really just emphasizes the swing is mostly swinging the club with your hands and arms. The rest is hype. Hitting balls with your feet together shows the same thing.

I am sorry but I can't resist people believe in such a silliness. I do not mean you or anyone personally, but just silly golf instruction based on ignorance of both physics and anatomy. Hitting balls with feet together means no body involved ???
Again, it is virtually impossible to hit with arms only -- even if one immobilizes totally one's hips and whole under-pelvic section, the body (from the waist up, in this case) still plays a crucial role in the motion.

Cheers

 

[Keefer]

I am sorry but I can't resist people believe in such a silliness. I do not mean you or anyone personally, but just silly golf instruction based on ignorance of both physics and anatomy. Hitting balls with feet together means no body involved ???
Again, it is virtually impossible to hit with arms only -- even if one immobilizes totally one's hips and whole under-pelvic section, the body (from the waist up, in this case) still plays a crucial role in the motion.

Cheers

Who said "no body involved?"

If you watched any or all of the things Jim Flick did on the Golf Channel you'd understand better. You can either believe his philosophy on the swing or not. I found he made a lot of sense myself.

Aren't you the guy who thinks modern PGA Tour players aren't as good as past players? We all can believe what we want. I thought Flick was a good teacher. Again, believe what you want. I didn't post to try to convince anyone. His teachings speak for themselves.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Who said "no body involved?"

If you watched any or all of the things Jim Flick did on the Golf Channel you'd understand better. You can either believe his philosophy on the swing or not. I found he made a lot of sense myself.

Aren't you the guy who thinks modern PGA Tour players aren't as good as past players? We all can believe what we want. I thought Flick was a good teacher. Again, believe what you want. I didn't post to try to convince anyone. His teachings speak for themselves.

I am just against this -- the swing is mostly swinging the club with your hands and arms. The rest is hype..
The notion such a sentence covers is utterly wrong unless we are moving outside the boundaries of physical reality. That's why I called it silliness no matter who believes or promotes it.

Cheers

 

[Keefer]

I am just against this -- the swing is mostly swinging the club with your hands and arms. The rest is hype..
The notion such a sentence covers is utterly wrong unless we are moving outside the boundaries of physical reality. That's why I called it silliness no matter who believes or promotes it.

Cheers

You're missing the whole point. And I said "how little you need the body". Again, Flick was an advocate that the body reacted to the hands and arms swinging the club. One way of showing this was hitting a driver off your knees, which he demonstrated on the Golf Channel. Hitting balls with your feet together shows the same thing. Again, believe what you want. I really could care less.

Aren't you the guy in Poland? I'm going to enjoy a nice extra dry Polish (potato, Luksusowa) Vodka martini later on. If you keep this BS up it may be sooner than later.

 

[Dariusz J.]

You're missing the whole point. Again, Flick was an advocate that the body reacted to the hands and arms swinging the club. One way of showing this was hitting a driver off your knees, which he demonstrated on the Golf Channel. Hitting balls with your feet together shows the same thing. Again, believe what you want. I really could care less.

Aren't you the guy in Poland? I'm going to enjoy a nice extra dry Polish (potato, Luksusowa) Vodka martini later on. If you keep this BS up it may be sooner than later.

Actually, I tried to be nice and meritoric. I am not missing anything. I am just reacting to BS you wrote. Saying that body reacts to the arms and hands swinging the club is totally different thing that the swing is mainly arms and hands.

Enjoy good vodka but do not waste it mixing with Martini or other garbage. Drink it pure.

I am off this discussion right now.

Cheers

 

[Keefer]

Actually, I tried to be nice and meritoric. I am not missing anything. I am just reacting to BS you wrote. Saying that body reacts to the arms and hands swinging the club is totally different thing that the swing is mainly arms and hands.

Enjoy good vodka but do not waste it mixing with Martini or other garbage. Drink it pure.

I am off this discussion right now.

Cheers

Reading comprehension not a strong suit I see. I said "extra dry" which means waving the bottle of vermouth over the martini. Actually I don't have any vermouth to even wave. So basically the potato vodka martini is pure, except I like an olive in it.

We Americans also love our ice. We like our drinks cold. So I do shake the martini over ice and pour it into a martini glass chilled for 19 minutes.

I can see where things can get lost in translation.

 

[lia41985]

Still thinking about the lie angle issue but...

In order to know how to do your job (hit the ball where you're intending to hit by using a club) first you need to understand the tool for your job...

"Make the club work like a club"

How?

Understanding club design will help us learn what we are trying to effectuate via our biomechanics.

Lie angle and bounce are big pieces in that puzzle...

Primers on lie angle: Why is the Lie Angle More Upright On a Game-Improvement Set of Irons?

and bounce: Understanding Golf Club Bounce Angle

Hopefully the clubface thread morphs into a general club discussion thread. And not in the sense of threads re: the newest TP model whatever...

The four components of loft, lie angle, bounce, and offset (including CoG/CoM offset) might be as important if not more important than the triumvirate of shaft, club face, and club head.

Understanding design features certainly helped this guy:

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ok....

Lie Angle always matters, but the less loft on the club, the less it matters.

The clubface normal (lie angle tool "point") that is pointing down the target line with a wedge, is also pointing quite up as well (loft).

As you tilt the clubface normal by JUST changing the lie, the "point" moves a lot left or right of the target (upright or flat, respectively).

When folks hit balls off of their knees—I do it a lot in lessons off of one knee (the right one, with the left bent)—they ADJUST the aim accordingly.

........................

Now, for the Jim Flick theory of swinging the arms....

I used to think he was full of it. But.....

Start with the stone cold fact from the Project 1.68 MJ thread showing how fast the arms swing faster than the body, and well, no body teacher was teaching that except for Jimmy Ballard.

The arms, hands, & wrists do way more in the swing than most folks think, and Mr. Flick deserves credit for beating the drum so long.

 

[wulsy]

Start with the stone cold fact from the Project 1.68 MJ thread showing how fast the arms swing faster than the body, and well, no body teacher was teaching that except for Jimmy Ballard.

No FAMOUS teacher, or at least none that stood out. But I'll bet you a penny to a pound that there were quite a number of no names teaching this. Everyone probably thought they were donkeys.

 

[Mike Thomas (sunmart)]

What is the relationship between swinging the arms and swinging left? Contradictory?

 

[Brian Manzella]

"Swing Dem Orms" —Alvin Jewell

 

[birly-shirly]

Primers on lie angle: Why is the Lie Angle More Upright On a Game-Improvement Set of Irons?

Well, I know we were supposed to be talking about drivers - but that article seems to suggest that longer clubs require more upright lie angles. Anyone else find that logic odd?

 

[lia41985]

Well, I know we were supposed to be talking about drivers - but that article seems to suggest that longer clubs require more upright lie angles. Anyone else find that logic odd?

Where's the CoG in modern drivers?

 

[birly-shirly]

I don't know. I didn't even know they're now all in the same place.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Start with the stone cold fact from the Project 1.68 MJ thread showing how fast the arms swing faster than the body[...].

This is a quite obvious fact. The more a distal part is in a circular motion the faster it moves.
It does not suggest anything more than no matter if one wants arms to follow or to lead they will be swinging faster.

Cheers