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For the record, I don't teach "opinion", only proven fact. FACT: 100% of the top 100 players in the world do not release the shaft to vertical before the left shoulder for full-power swings. FACT: the same group keeps the trail arm extending past impact. In light of this fact, why do so many insist its a good idea to pull the hands inward at impact. Only in golf instruction can people become so confused to believe its possible to pull your hand inward while simultaneously extending it outward. To quote Jim McClean, "Don't tell me, show me". As in show me a TOP 100 player who violates the 2 facts that I have presented. Oh yeah, that's right, "video lies"...........that is................when it doesn't support your opinion.

In fairness, even assuming everything you've just said about the world's elite golfers is true, I don't see how it necessarily contradicts Brian's findings that force on the club at and through impact has been measured as normal to the golfer along the shaft. An elite golfer can demonstrate all of the moves you are describing while still pulling the radius out of the ground, and going completely normal at and through impact.

Also, "normal to the golfer" along the shaft doesn't necessarily advocate some odd pulling of the hands inward in a way where the arms/hands collapse weakly into the golfer. It simply means using your release, body, and pivot in a way that, by the time you reach impact, the only force you are exerting on the club is pulling the shaft up out of the ground toward you, because the radius was already "in the ground" prior to impact.
 
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Only in golf instruction can people become so confused to believe its possible to pull your hand inward while simultaneously extending it outward..

Todd, I don't understand. If I would pull the shoulder would that not then pull the hand specially while still be extended?
 
For the record, I don't teach "opinion", only proven fact. FACT: 100% of the top 100 players in the world do not release the shaft to vertical before the left shoulder for full-power swings. FACT: the same group keeps the trail arm extending past impact. In light of this fact, why do so many insist its a good idea to pull the hands inward at impact. Only in golf instruction can people become so confused to believe its possible to pull your hand inward while simultaneously extending it outward. To quote Jim McClean, "Don't tell me, show me". As in show me a TOP 100 player who violates the 2 facts that I have presented. Oh yeah, that's right, "video lies"...........that is................when it doesn't support your opinion.

Could be golf, could be astonomy, could be almost any topic. When I hear people stating the FACTS! (in caps) and pronouncing themselves as the authority, I just cringe and my opinion of them drops. They would be much more effective, in my opinion, if they phrased things in a way that left open the possibility that he could be wrong.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Brian,I realize sports psychology probably doesn't qualify as science but quite a few sports psychologists do recognise the "hit impulse" phenomenon as legitimate and try to come up with ways to overcome it.They say it is quite difficult to overcome especially when playing an actual round of golf.

I believe this is one of the main reasons why golf is so difficult.

However,I value your take on it and would love to hear why you disagree with it.

The "so-called" hit impulse is just poor form. For the beginner—hit the ball in the air. For the hacker—start my slice left. Etc.

For the record, I don't teach "opinion", only proven fact.

Uh huh....

The shaft will come off of the head when the shaft becomes vertical....they are THROWING the head off of the shaft, not PULLING the shaft off the head.

BA-loney!​



FACT: 100% of the top 100 players in the world do not release the shaft to vertical before the left shoulder for full-power swings.

FACT: the same group keeps the trail arm extending past impact.

In light of this fact, why do so many insist its a good idea to pull the hands inward at impact.

Well, eh....'cause they do, bra.


Only in golf instruction can people become so confused to believe its possible to pull your hand inward while simultaneously extending it outward. To quote Jim McClean, "Don't tell me, show me". As in show me a TOP 100 player who violates the 2 facts that I have presented. Oh yeah, that's right, "video lies"...........that is................when it doesn't support your opinion.

Video can't do a flippin' thing about determining forces being applied by the golfer. So sorry.

Thanks for playing.

;)
 
For the record, I don't teach "opinion", only proven fact. FACT: 100% of the top 100 players in the world do not release the shaft to vertical before the left shoulder for full-power swings. FACT: the same group keeps the trail arm extending past impact. In light of this fact, why do so many insist its a good idea to pull the hands inward at impact. Only in golf instruction can people become so confused to believe its possible to pull your hand inward while simultaneously extending it outward. To quote Jim McClean, "Don't tell me, show me". As in show me a TOP 100 player who violates the 2 facts that I have presented. Oh yeah, that's right, "video lies"...........that is................when it doesn't support your opinion.
Todd -- wouldn't each of those Top 100 videos show a golfer whose lead shoulder is rising through the impact zone, thus pulling the extended lead arm/hand attached to that shoulder upward and inward?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
For the record, I don't teach "opinion", only proven fact. FACT: 100% of the top 100 players in the world do not release the shaft to vertical before the left shoulder for full-power swings. FACT: the same group keeps the trail arm extending past impact. In light of this fact, why do so many insist its a good idea to pull the hands inward at impact. Only in golf instruction can people become so confused to believe its possible to pull your hand inward while simultaneously extending it outward. To quote Jim McClean, "Don't tell me, show me". As in show me a TOP 100 player who violates the 2 facts that I have presented. Oh yeah, that's right, "video lies"...........that is................when it doesn't support your opinion.

I would just continue to teach what you teach.
 
I used to think the "pull" was all wrong. Now I know it was the reason for my good shots. At the end of the day, I'd have to express my thanks to the Manz for highlighting this fact. I is so much more cleverer now.

Greetings, Haw Haw
 
Just so I can enjoy this thread a bit more, can someone just run by me the difference between "tugging and "pulling"
Thanks
 
The way I understand it, tugging is a move that usually pushes the handle of the club out toward the ball. Basically disrupting an optimal handpath. Pulling in this case occurs along the shaft like trying to pull the grip off the shaft.
 

lia41985

New member
Tugging: towards the target and outwards, towards the ball target line

Pulling: Away from the target and inwards, inside the ball target line
 
Not sure there's a better one than this...................."Throw the clubhead off the shaft at the left foot."

hey Todd, i'm having a discussion elsewhere on the web. Do you mean directionally at the left foot? As in aiming point? Or, do you mean as it passes the left foot--like a timing thing?
 
Would it be fair to say the following...
When we pull, it's a good idea to feel the clubhead left behind because if the clubhead goes with the shaft then pulling the shaft out of the club would be impossible?
 
I think that's ok, Oliver.

Don't know if it is correct or not, but I have been trying to pull the grip off the shaft and into my testicles throughout the whole downswing and past impact lately. Only difference seen on video is a better hand path.
 

lia41985

New member
I tried for years to do it the way Todd said and I ended up playing better doing it like Brian describes in the "Ideas" video--basketball shot. Experiment and find what works for you.
 

ej20

New
The "so-called" hit impulse is just poor form. For the beginner—hit the ball in the air. For the hacker—start my slice left. Etc.



Uh huh....



BA-loney!​





Well, eh....'cause they do, bra.




Video can't do a flippin' thing about determining forces being applied by the golfer. So sorry.

Thanks for playing.

;)
I think poor form can contribute but the "hit impulse" can still rear it's ugly head even if you know how to make a good golf action.

Case in point is a player making a practice swing with good form but that form disintegrates once a ball is in the way.Sure,some might argue that the practice swing is no good but that doesn't explain the differences in the two forms.Also,there is no way to prove the practice swing was no good but you can bet the real one will be most likely no good.

TGM addresses this with illusions of impact and aiming points that are usually exaggeratedly forward.
 
I think this idea of pulling the grip off etc etc is somewhat exaggerated. It's nowhere near as extreme as that. Oh, and I'm worried about you guys who are constantly referring to the testicles.
 

art

New
Todd -- wouldn't each of those Top 100 videos show a golfer whose lead shoulder is rising through the impact zone, thus pulling the extended lead arm/hand attached to that shoulder upward and inward?

Dear puttmaster,

Great comment and observation.

In 2007, when I first got curious about ground reaction forces and how in golf they were created, I actually took the fold-out swing sequences in the golf magazines, and with engineering tracing paper, drew the position of the lead shoulder sequentially from each frame for both the head on, and down the line views.

For sure, the lead shoulder is going up (or sometimes and unfortunately horizontally for amateurs), and for good reason. From simple geometry, the angle between the arms and the club at address and impact are different necessitating ALWAYS, a movement of the lead shoulder to a more distant location at impact thru full extension of both arms.

This is the time period being discussed here, and another VERY important relevant point is to be made from physics, not geometry.

For a golfer hitting a driver with a swing speed of 100 miles per hour at impact, the centripetal force needed to be keep the club stably on its 'flight path' is almost exactly 100 pounds, and easy to remember. Since the force is a 'square function' with the velocity, a 110 MPH swing develops 121 pounds of force, a 90 MPH, 81 pounds of force etc.

My point is the effect on STABILITY of the flight path of the club. If that centripetal force is not RESISTED exactly, the club will drift AWAY from the intended path. Conversely, if MORE than the centripetal force is exerted on the grip in a pulling direction, the path will be changed, but the physics suggests that 'parametric acceleration' will occur, with a resultant increase in club head velocity.

So, IMO, even though subjective, throwing the club head off the shaft, and pulling on the shaft could result in very different club head dynamic, and flight path conditions.

Sincerely,
art
 
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