Release

[mandrin]

Sound asleep?

Rather intriguing that on a forum claiming to be best in all including science/golf matters there being no interest in a vital subject such as release, at the core of every golf swing.

A very typical example of how release is usually ‘dicussed’ without giving any indication what it really is all about can be found in “How Important Is Your Golf Swing Release”.

The dominant idea still permeating everything is the notion of gathering power on the backswing and releasing this power in the forward swing.

TGM seems to use a pseudo-scientific literal translation of this idea with the concept of power accumulators which however don’t gather anything at all.

Where are the golf aficionados on this forum , where are the tongzillas, birdie mans, golfbulldogs, Biffers and company. All sound asleep?

It would also be very interesting and useful to hear how the phenomenon of release, as it is defined in the Manzella Matrix, is considered and explained.

 

[starretj]

Mandrin,
Contemplating your information in post #13 and Fig.2 in post #40, does the curvilinear path of the hands increase clubhead speed at impact because as the x component of the path is trying to get the clubhead to release, the -y component is retaining more of the angle between the hands and the clubhead?

Jim S.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Excellent analogy to a release controlled by the pivot, if I have read your intentions correctly. Just as I could see Hogan in action through your arrows and symbols
Mandrin, I think that too small a number of golfers wants the yang element dominate over the ying one and, thus, they make the release a big timing-dependent problem in a golf swing. Or maybe, they are simply afraid to "trust" the yin more...?

Keep the science coming, mate. I am all "eyes"

Cheers

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,
Contemplating your information in post #13 and Fig.2 in post #40, does the curvilinear path of the hands increase clubhead speed at impact because as the x component of the path is trying to get the clubhead to release, the -y component is retaining more of the angle between the hands and the clubhead?

Jim S.

Jim,

You re intuitively very much on the right track but I don’t want to jump too much ahead of myself. I will come back on this in more detail.

For now let me just say that the hands on the grip end is the only place where, whatever we do, has an effect on the dynamics of the club in the down swing.

Hence indeed the path curved out in space by the grip end plays a very important role. As does the force/acceleration generated at the grip end at each instant.

There is also to consider the typical action of a kinetic chain, i.e., the transfer of momentum/energy from proximal to the distal parts, i.e. towards the clubhead.

BTW, you can do a simple experiment to feel the effect of the trajectory. Swing with relaxed wrists smoothly on plane, sensing that you move forward and downward on plane with the hands.

Next swing, relaxed wrists, smoothly again but ‘feel’ that the hands go down more vertically beside the body or even slightly away backwards. You will now experience a much faster release action.

There are indeed many ways to skin a cat.

 

[mandrin]

Excellent analogy to a release controlled by the pivot, if I have read your intentions correctly. Just as I could see Hogan in action through your arrows and symbols
Mandrin, I think that too small a number of golfers wants the yang element dominate over the ying one and, thus, they make the release a big timing-dependent problem in a golf swing. Or maybe, they are simply afraid to "trust" the yin more...?

Keep the science coming, mate. I am all "eyes"

Cheers

Dariusz,

Perhaps symbols, images play a greater role than generally admitted. One could argue that the ultimate goal of any specific technique is to crystallize into a some sort of feeling, image, symbol or the like. Very much Percy Boomer’s forte.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Rather intriguing that on a forum claiming to be best in all including science/golf matters there being no interest in a vital subject such as release, at the core of every golf swing.

A very typical example of how release is usually ‘dicussed’ without giving any indication what it really is all about can be found in “How Important Is Your Golf Swing Release”.

The dominant idea still permeating everything is the notion of gathering power on the backswing and releasing this power in the forward swing.

TGM seems to use a pseudo-scientific literal translation of this idea with the concept of power accumulators which however don’t gather anything at all.

Where are the golf aficionados on this forum , where are the tongzillas, birdie mans, golfbulldogs, Biffers and company. All sound asleep?

It would also be very interesting and useful to hear how the phenomenon of release, as it is defined in the Manzella Matrix, is considered and explained.

Mandrin,

I will try to read some of this thread later tonight and post on it.

Thanks for all your hard work.

The "Forum" is not asleep, the host is just asweeping.

 

[tongzilla]

tongzilla's conclusions so far on this thread.

Where are the golf aficionados on this forum , where are the tongzillas, birdie mans, golfbulldogs, Biffers and company. All sound asleep?

Hello mandrin. I'm not asleep. I just don't have a freakin' clue what you're trying to say unless I put some effort into reading your posts.

Here are some conclusions I draw from this thread.

The human golf swing is very complicated when trying to model it with mathematics. [nothing new here...]

You have to find some way to create some force at the start of the downswing. There's no "free energy". You have to put some effort in first. But once you learn how to use the first part of the downstroke, the rest can be put on autopilot. [I'm not sure if I agree with that however...not from my FEEL perspective anyway]

You make your own "automatic force".

Linear force can produce a rotational motion. [nothing new here...]

It is not advisable to control one's release during release. [nothing new here...]

Bending/stressing the shaft at the start of the downstroke does not create extra clubhead speed by itself.

Swing left after impact [nothing new here...]

Apply a straight-line force via a rotating body to create more efficient speed.

 

[mandrin]

Hello mandrin. I'm not asleep. I just don't have a freakin' clue what you're trying to say unless I put some effort into reading your posts.

Here are some conclusions I draw from this thread.

The human golf swing is very complicated when trying to model it with mathematics. [nothing new here...]

You have to find some way to create some force at the start of the downswing. There's no "free energy". You have to put some effort in first. But once you learn how to use the first part of the downstroke, the rest can be put on autopilot. [I'm not sure if I agree with that however...not from my FEEL perspective anyway]

You make your own "automatic force".

Linear force can produce a rotational motion. [nothing new here...]

It is not advisable to control one's release during release. [nothing new here...]

Bending/stressing the shaft at the start of the downstroke does not create extra clubhead speed by itself.

Swing left after impact [nothing new here...]

Apply a straight-line force via a rotating body to create more efficient speed.

tongzilla,
I respectfully take of my hat in the presence of such superior knowledge.
I just regret one little thing, why do you hardly share it with us all.
Don’t hide all that sweet knowledge under a bushel.
Btw, you seem to forget that it is all basically about release.
Is it therefore asking too much to let us partake in your wisdom?
What exactly is the correct explanation of the phenomenon of release?
What actually makes it tick? What are the typical forces in play?
You don’t mind if in my humble way I continue to post about release?
Some have not yet reached your level of superior golf wisdom.
Hope I did not disturb you too much; I am a peace-loving person.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Mandrin,

If you "prevent" the release of a Power Generator, (like retaining left wrist cock), isn't this "Negative Torque" especially if releasing i on purpose is Positive Torque, and "allowing" it to do as it wishes is "No Torque"?

In the model, the straight line movement, to me, is Negative Torque.

No?

 

[watson08]

Quite a few years ago there was a very naïve enthusiastic scientific current of thinking which entailed that it was only a matter of time that many domestic human activities could be done by robots. Many years later this has not come to fruition. There is a lot we take too much for granted, even done by scientists.

The actual golf swing is also, indeed like all human motions for that matter, a very complex endeavor. I feel that we just don’t realize how complex it is till you start to try to translate it a bit into mathematics. However it is still remarkable that even very simply models can tell us some useful things.

We have seen that when pulling a golf club along a straight line that there are simultaneously two basic motions. A straight line motion of the center of mass and a rotational motion around this center of mass. This is again depicted in Fig1.

Both motions can contribute to clubhead speed but they do it different ways. Initially the linear pulling force creates both a positive linear and angular acceleration. However very soon, due to the changing angle between club and force vector, there is a negative angular acceleration and hence rotational braking.

By folding the linear path roughly into a circle we still have basically the same pattern, Fig2. However we have seen that the ‘linear’ pulling torque is now more efficient over a longer time. One can almost see the folding into a circle as a means to create more ample and efficient motion into less space.

If one takes the linear effort as the yang element and the angular effort as the yin element one can consider an optimum downswing as a balance between the harmonious blending of effort and letting go. To get the max with the least effort one has to let go of the yang to let the yin element play its role.

I'd like to preface my comments by saying that I wasn't a slicer, but I was (am?) a flipper and never really felt what it was like to fully release the golf club until I employed Brian's neutral grip and most excellent twistaway move from the top of the backswing through swing completion.

It has been a quantum leap forward for me. Why do I use this terminology? Because there was a barrier over which I did not pass for 15 years or more. Now, I'm finally rotating my left forearm in the downswing and I can feel and repeat it for the most part. If I understand your analogy, I was nearly 100% yang. Now, with Brian's help, I've introduced some yin. I am continuing to develop the yin and I am aware that it should be balanced with the yang for best results.

Week after week, impact feel, the impact sound, shot trajectory, shot distance, shot dispersion, shot consistency all indicate that this move has at least reduced my flip and perhaps added lag. If true, I'm wondering why rotating the left arm might cause this. Borrowing from Brian, I'm letting it "percolate inside the coconut." Am I nuts, or might there be something here?

 

[tongzilla]

pls skip this post unless you're mandrin

tongzilla,
I respectfully take of my hat in the presence of such superior knowledge.

I can only claim that I have superior knowledge about my own golf swing.

I just regret one little thing, why do you hardly share it with us all.

Because I do not feel I have that much to contribute regarding the topic of this thread - the science of the release. I have done what I can (for the benefit of myself) - to summarise what you've said.

Don’t hide all that sweet knowledge under a bushel.

I don't most of the time.

Btw, you seem to forget that it is all basically about release.

? yes.

Is it therefore asking too much to let us partake in your wisdom?

My wisdom is more useful to myself than anyone else. What applies to me doesn't apply to everybody.

What exactly is the correct explanation of the phenomenon of release?

I don't know what's the "correct" explanation.

What actually makes it tick? What are the typical forces in play?

You have partially answered these questions in your own posts.

You don’t mind if in my humble way I continue to post about release?

I'm a member not a moderator.

Some have not yet reached your level of superior golf wisdom.

I know.

Hope I did not disturb you too much; I am a peace-loving person.

I am not disturbed. I am also peace loving. On a side note, you appreciate peace more having experienced the opposite.

 

[mandrin]

If you "prevent" the release of a Power Generator, (like retaining left wrist cock), isn't this "Negative Torque" especially if releasing i on purpose is Positive Torque, and "allowing" it to do as it wishes is "No Torque"?

Agreed.

In the model, the straight line movement, to me, is Negative Torque.
No?

Brian,

I am thinking and developing the mathematics as I go along. I try to go in small steps so that every body has a fair chance to follow it all. I am doing my best to put in the simplest way possible and yet still retain some true meaning. However still more to come. Once everything on the table with hindsight it will be easier, I hope.

Let’s look at Figs 1a, b and c. As mentioned before the linear force F can be decomposed equivalently as a linear force F through the center of mass and a torque around this center of mass.

The linear force F through the mass center remains constant independent of the motion of the rod. The torque however depends on the angle between the rod and the line AA’. The greater this angle the greater the torque.

There are 3 possibilities for the torque shown respectively in Figs 1a, b and c.

With the slender rod above AA' we have a positive torque, Fig1a. With the rod aligned along AA’ we have zero torque, Fig1b, and with the rod dipping below AA’ we have a negative and hence braking torque. (as soon as things starts moving it is a little more complex as inertial forces/torques start playing a role).

Hence if we start as in Fig1a we have the force F and torque both increase the speed of the distal end of the rod. The rod starts moving to the right as well as rotating towards AA”. However as soon as the rod dips below AA” the torque becomes negative and starts to slow down the rotational component of the overall motion.

Hence from now on there is a battle going on between torque and force; one trying to slow down the other to increase the rod’s distal speed. If however we let go there is immediately a large postive inertial torque coming into play (post#13).

In a real golf swing we have a similar process. Think of the strong but inexperienced male golfer expending much effort and in contrast the experienced golfer making it looking easy. Giving in at the right time allows to obtain a more for less.

 

[watson08]

Mandrin, Would you mind explaining why there is this "switching" of "rotational" torque when the rod passes through horizontal? Might this tell the golfer to get started squaring the face as early as possible to take advantage of the postive/helping torque? Many thanks!

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin, Would you mind explaining why there is this "switching" of "rotational" torque when the rod passes through horizontal? Might this tell the golfer to get started squaring the face as early as possible to take advantage of the postive/helping torque? Many thanks!

watson,

Rotate in your imagination Fig1 90 deg counter clockwise. Furthermore now think of the slender rod as being the pendulum arm of a grandfather’s clock.

The pendulum arm always wants to come back to the neutral vertical position under the effect of a torque created by the gravity force acting through the center of mass of the pendulum arm.

The pendulum arm hence rotates back to neutral either clockwise or counter-clockwise as it acted on by either a positive or negative gravity torque about the center of mass, changing sign when the pendulum passes the vertical.

However the action of rolling of the arms, changing the orientation of the club face, is another chapter by itself, not quit related to the release mechanism, which is more strictly related with clubhead velocity. I have in the past posted about this in another thread - Cock’n’Roll - Release – uncocking & roll.

 

[watson08]

Mandrin, Thank you very much. I understand your clock analogy and will head over to the other thread later to soak up more. BTW, I love your use of yin/yang. Maybe I've got this all wrong, but it seems that too much of the linear force makes it difficult to get the needed angular rotation. I had some trouble today and when I just eased up on the linear force, I started hitting it solid again. I've got to temper my desire to kill it with the linear force.

 

[mandrin]

Brian,

Busy, painting, roofing and doing a plumbing job, you might want to relax a bit and write a small post to outline the Manzella Matrix Downstroke Release Mechanism.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Mandrin, if someone has difficulty uncocking and rolling the left wrist to release point, should they, in your opinion, do it concsiously?

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin, if someone has difficulty uncocking and rolling the left wrist to release point, should they, in your opinion, do it concsiously?

Kevin,

Your idea makes perfectly sense as it is the normal way to learn any motion pattern. But once learned you let it happen. If it weren’t this way we couldn’t even move around since it being impossible to control all muscles involved consciously.

 

[birdie_man]

mandrin......truth be told I am way too intimidated by you to post in your thread.

 

[mandrin]

If one starts looking around for ideas and explanations for the release mechanism in the down stroke of a golf swing it does not take long to discover that there is a general consensus for centrifugal force to be the crux, the heart and soul, of the release mechanism.

There are many golf swing patents and training devices all directly related to centrifugal force. Below just a typical example of a patent,

‘United States Patent 4515368, a device for improving the mechanics of a golfer's swing which is attached to the golf club and adjacent to the grip, and which emits a continuous audible signal so long as the device is subjected to at least a predetermined centrifugal force which is generated by swinging the club. The device includes a battery, buzzer and switch which is spring biased to force the switch open. The spring is compressed by the centrifugal force generated by swinging the club to allow the switch to close and activate the buzzer. The spring may be adjustably prestressed to vary the amount of centrifugal force needed to close the switch.’

Or a golf swing training device such a the swing rite,

There are many well known golfers/instructors who have made centrifugal force to be THE most important element of their instruction such as Ernest Jones, Bob Toski, Jim Flick, George Knudson, Manual de la Torre, John Redman, just naming a few.

Explanations are usually like some given below,

-1- ‘With a centrifugal swing, you stop thinking of swing mechanics and what the club does. Instead, you focus on swinging free and easy. The club and the laws of physics do most of the work. It goes along the natural path. You just go along for the ride, letting centrifugal force and inertia do they work’.

-2- ‘The ideal golf swing tempo occurs when you swing using centrifugal force and not brute force. Swinging with maximum centrifugal force is the most efficient way to improve your golf swing tempo and to increase your club head speed.’

-3- ‘The golf swing is nothing more than moving the club in a centrifugal manner towards the target - the body does nothing but respond to that movement. That is the essence of de la Torre's teaching - absolutely perfect and will be unequaled as long as golf is played. ’

-4- ‘Once you have learned and experienced this key fundamental, you will never again want to “hit” the ball with your arms and hands. You will be hooked on the aphrodisiac of true power and consistency.
• Body turn creates centrifugal force
• Centrifugal force produces clubhead speed and consistency ‘

-5- ‘Centrifugal Force, or center force, is the principle of force or power that is directed or created from a central point. It is a developing force, moving from the center outward. Good shots in golf are a result of a sound swing that has centrifugal force.’

Not only laymen have thought this way, scientists do as well. For instance, very well known Dr Alastair Cochran, who spearheaded the group of English scientists producing, “Search for the Perfect Swing”, invokes clearly centrifugal force to explain the phenomenon of release.

There seems to be therefore indeed an overwhelming impetus towards thinking that the outward acting centrifugal force, swiftly getting very large in the down stroke, is responsible for the release - the rapid catching up of the club with the arms.

However, a perhaps somewhat daring question:

Notwithstanding this impressive consensus of opinion of golfers, teaching pros, laymen and scientists alike, could it be that they are, collectively, barking up the wrong tree?

Btw, I do consider centrifugal force to be really present in the down swing. Hence I am not playing around stirring up dust to perhaps finally simply suggest that it does not exist.