Release

[birdie_man]

Interesting mandrin.

The following (below) isn't really based on anything other than intuition and some basic knowledge of the golf swing and golf science.....(very basic on the latter).....

But all I know...

Is I've suspected that CF is ACTING on the club in the bottom of the downswing (I don't see how it can't be)........but I'm not so sure it plays any part in CAUSING the release.

Just a few thoughts put in writing. Admittedly this is based on not much more than a certain intuition.

 

[mandrin]

Interesting mandrin.

The following (below) isn't really based on anything other than intuition and some basic knowledge of the golf swing and golf science.....(very basic on the latter).....

But all I know...

Is I've suspected that CF is ACTING on the club in the bottom of the downswing (I don't see how it can't be)........but I'm not so sure it plays any part in CAUSING the release.

Just a few thoughts put in writing. Admittedly this is based on not much more than a certain intuition.

birdie man, don’t you find it a but strange that you, a very enthusiastic golfer, probably having read and seen all that is interesting and available on the market place, can’t tell me much about what causes release. Yet it is THE most important dynamic feature in a down stroke.

Isn’t it an indication that in golf literature and instruction collectively most simply repeat what has been said before? An excellent example is that ‘other’ forum led by a 900 year old guru where every body religiously repeats the same quotes from the ‘book’. Even their compliments are stereotyped.

Not much critical thinking going on in golf instruction. Good thing there is someone like Brian around with an open mind. Too many big egos around trying to impress with meaningless slogans. A little modesty and willingness to learn from any source would is perhaps rare a commodity. No time, too busy making money.

 

[birdie_man]

I think critically a lot.

Just not scientifically as much as yourself, mandrin.

BTW the only insight I offered you is what I wrote on the page above.

I will be back to post later. (hopefully in here also)

I honestly have only read (some) of the last 2 pages of this thread.

I love the last 2 paragraphs of your latest post though.

Later mandrin.

-Paul

 

[Robbohank]

Davies?

Mandrin,

Are you stating that those who create an additional vertical movement of the center of mass as you enter the release are able to increase clubhead velocity (e.g. Laura Davies straightening her legs near impact)? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg6cR9lt5Xs#

Is this the same thing that Paula Creamer and Natalie Gulbis are attempting to do? Although they have the appearance of dipping down considerably, it looks like they straighten their legs and get on their toes near impact and then have a huge drop of the head into follow-thru.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jviToMF5kYk&feature=related#

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,

Are you stating that those who create an additional vertical movement of the center of mass as you enter the release are able to increase clubhead velocity (e.g. Laura Davies straightening her legs near impact)? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg6cR9lt5Xs#

Is this the same thing that Paula Creamer and Natalie Gulbis are attempting to do? Although they have the appearance of dipping down considerably, it looks like they straighten their legs and get on their toes near impact and then have a huge drop of the head into follow-thru.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jviToMF5kYk&feature=related#

Robbohank,

I have seen, can’t remember where, a sequence where indeed, some years ago, Laura Davies literally is getting out of her shoes. She must have changed her swing since then. Indeed these two young ladies are rising up quite nicely onto their toes. Their swing centers, between the shoulders, does not dip noticeable up to impact whereas the upwards motion onto the toes is quite noticeable.

Raising the swing center when the clubhead speed is close to maximum, hence just prior to impact, pumps kinetic energy into the swing. This is coherent with the snapping straight of the lead knee done by some golfers. Another approach is to view it as a shortening of the effective swing radius. As long as the upward pull is continuously directed along the lead arm it is mathematically equivalent to a shortening of the swing radius.

In “Practical Golf” by John Jacobs there is a rather detailed explanation why women golfers tend to raise up on their toes. Basically to obtain a shallower approach arc and to compensate for early hitting so as not to hit the ground before hitting the ball. This might also be valid; better ask Brian about these aspect.

 

[Robbohank]

Robbohank,

I have seen, can’t remember where, a sequence where indeed, some years ago, Laura Davies literally is getting out of her shoes. She must have changed her swing since then. Indeed these two young ladies are rising up quite nicely onto their toes. Their swing centers, between the shoulders, does not dip noticeable up to impact whereas the upwards motion onto the toes is quite noticeable.

Raising the swing center when the clubhead speed is close to maximum, hence just prior to impact, pumps kinetic energy into the swing. This is coherent with the snapping straight of the lead knee done by some golfers. Another approach is to view it as a shortening of the effective swing radius. As long as the upward pull is continuously directed along the lead arm it is mathematically equivalent to a shortening of the swing radius.

In “Practical Golf” by John Jacobs there is a rather detailed explanation why women golfers tend to raise up on their toes. Basically to obtain a shallower approach arc and to compensate for early hitting so as not to hit the ground before hitting the ball. This might also be valid; better ask Brian about these aspect.

I seem to recall the same about Davies and can picture her in a very dramatic "on both toes with straight legs" at impact. It may be she simply wasn't going at this particular drive quite as hard. Maybe this is where the term "standing on one" comes from.

Robbo

 

[lasse]

Notwithstanding this impressive consensus of opinion of golfers, teaching pros, laymen and scientists alike, could it be that they are, collectively, barking up the wrong tree?

I am new to this site, TGM and "golf science", so i am sure I am all wrong, but interested to hear your ideas and see the thread continue.

Could it be that the amount of torque applied to roll the club affects how fast the club catches up the hands more than CF alone?

 

[mandrin]

I am new to this site, TGM and "golf science", so i am sure I am all wrong, but interested to hear your ideas and see the thread continue.

Could it be that the amount of torque applied to roll the club affects how fast the club catches up the hands more than CF alone?

lasse,


I was just on the brink of posting the 'dialogue' below when I noticed your post.

Bravo, still someone around expressing curiosity re. to concepts and ideas.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


mandrin, how it is going? Are your efforts stirring up some interesting discussions? After all this forum is getting sooooo large, there are certainly at least one or two true aficionados around.

mandrin, surprisingly, the facts are somewhat different. In a nutshell, only Darius showed some genuine interest but tongzilla tells me that my stuff is just old and presents nothing new, birdie_man says it looks interesting but also admits that he really has not read much of it and Brian assures me that, notwithstanding the impression, everybody is fully awake. That’s about it.

mandrin, I seem to remember that not that long ago this forum was quite often hustling and bustling with interesting and vigorous discussions?

mandrin, you might be quite right. But that was before ‘discussions’ and ‘questions’ were merged with the result that any potential subject for discussion is quickly lost, swamped by an incessant stampede of questions, nobody has really the time to answer. The archives are going to be some confusing source of tidbits of information before long.

mandrin, what are you going to do with this thread? You were busy developing some interesting new ideas about the release mechanism in the down stroke.

mandrin, probably just keep them for myself.

mandrin, what do you make of this obvious lack of interest?

mandrin, nowadays people are just out for intellectual fast food, wanting things instantaneously, for free, and without expending much effort. I feel that golfers seem to be in general a rather gullible lot. It explains perhaps partly why golf, intellectually, is such a stagnant business. Year in year out the same subjects - how to definitely cure you slice, or, how to develop true power, etc., etc.. Yet it is all sold readily, this continuous recycling of more of the same, year in year out, ad vitam aeternam.

 

[starretj]

Jim,

You re intuitively very much on the right track but I don’t want to jump too much ahead of myself. I will come back on this in more detail.

For now let me just say that the hands on the grip end is the only place where, whatever we do, has an effect on the dynamics of the club in the down swing.

Hence indeed the path curved out in space by the grip end plays a very important role. As does the force/acceleration generated at the grip end at each instant.

There is also to consider the typical action of a kinetic chain, i.e., the transfer of momentum/energy from proximal to the distal parts, i.e. towards the clubhead.

BTW, you can do a simple experiment to feel the effect of the trajectory. Swing with relaxed wrists smoothly on plane, sensing that you move forward and downward on plane with the hands.

Next swing, relaxed wrists, smoothly again but ‘feel’ that the hands go down more vertically beside the body or even slightly away backwards. You will now experience a much faster release action.

There are indeed many ways to skin a cat.

I feel slighted by your last post, Mandrin. You could at least mention me in your conversation with yourself. I was waiting patiently for more analysis from you as you mentioned.

Jim S.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Heresy......

Could it be that the amount of torque applied to roll the club affects how fast the club catches up the hands more than CF alone?

Exactly that is a Major Component of What Powers the Golf Swing..... Unfortunately Very Few People in the Universe Realize This Obvious Fact.....On the Downswing the Left Arm Rolls/Rotates 90 Degrees Counter Clockwise from the top of the Backswing to the Impact Position..... The Left Arm Also Travels about 150 Degrees Downward from the Top of the Backswing to the Impact Position.... These Two combined Motions Contribute to 90% of the ClubHead Velocity Imparted to the Golf Ball...... The Whole action is very Much like a Hockey Players Slap Shot....... Traditional Definitions of a Scissors Release of the Left Wrist Contribute very little to Impact Velocity....... The Use of a Double Pendulum Paradigm Does NOT Model this Slap Release........... Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge.....

 

[dbl]

Mandrin, I actually went to the range last night with the intent of using your analysis. Usually when swinging I think of applying a continuous left arm roll torque, but I seem to have timing issues and the face is not consistent at impact. So I tried applying a small torque at "0.2" seconds into the downswing to see if the fast closing shown by Fig 5 and 6 in your matrix_operations_3_3.html would occur. My results support the analysis. I'm not sure if I will take this to the course this weekend, as I'm working on a few other setup issues and more of a 4 barrel approach, but I definitely thank you for showing me through the mathematics some swing behaviors of the clubhead/face.

 

[LiftOff]

On the Downswing the Left Arm Rolls/Rotates 90 Degrees Counter Clockwise from the top of the Backswing to the Impact Position..... Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge.....

Not sure I'd agree with your data point. At address the label on my shaft is straight up. In the backswing, when the club is horizontal and parallel to the target line, the label is still straight up. The pivot has turned the club to plane. At that juncture my wrist cocks and I'm 'on plane', but still effectively straight up. i.e. no rolling.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Mandrin,

The element that is shaping the force F in a correct and most effective way should lead away the other one all along the motion...while the latter's task is to not disturb the positive torque to vanish too early in the swing...I am not a physician and hardly brilliant but it becomes sort of obvious...

Correct me if I'm going away from a good track...

It's one of the most fascinating threads on the Forum for sure...I wish there is more such TRUE science engaged in the golf swing...everything would be much easier to trust and, consequently, to execute, IMO.


Cheers

 

[Bronco Billy]

ForeSwing.......

Not sure I'd agree with your data point. At address the label on my shaft is straight up. In the backswing, when the club is horizontal and parallel to the target line, the label is still straight up. The pivot has turned the club to plane. At that juncture my wrist cocks and I'm 'on plane', but still effectively straight up. i.e. no rolling.

Who the Hell said anything about the BackSwing?????? Not Me..... Check the ForeSwing and tell me what Happens..... Have a Great Day.....

 

[LiftOff]

Who the Hell said anything about the BackSwing?????? Not Me..... Check the ForeSwing and tell me what Happens..... Have a Great Day.....

I'm talking about back and fore swing, through past impact to club horizontal if you like.

Relax.

 

[DOCW3]

rising up

I see the beltline "rising" in one of Brian's staff and with Jack Nicklaus.

BTW, I was having a tough time with the positive/negative torque until your post to rotate the sketch so the rod was vertical.

Robbohank,

I have seen, can’t remember where, a sequence where indeed, some years ago, Laura Davies literally is getting out of her shoes. She must have changed her swing since then. Indeed these two young ladies are rising up quite nicely onto their toes. Their swing centers, between the shoulders, does not dip noticeable up to impact whereas the upwards motion onto the toes is quite noticeable.

Raising the swing center when the clubhead speed is close to maximum, hence just prior to impact, pumps kinetic energy into the swing. This is coherent with the snapping straight of the lead knee done by some golfers. Another approach is to view it as a shortening of the effective swing radius. As long as the upward pull is continuously directed along the lead arm it is mathematically equivalent to a shortening of the swing radius.

In “Practical Golf” by John Jacobs there is a rather detailed explanation why women golfers tend to raise up on their toes. Basically to obtain a shallower approach arc and to compensate for early hitting so as not to hit the ground before hitting the ball. This might also be valid; better ask Brian about these aspect.

 

[mandrin]

I see the beltline "rising" in one of Brian's staff and with Jack Nicklaus.

BTW, I was having a tough time with the positive/negative torque until your post to rotate the sketch so the rod was vertical.

DOCW3

Glad to see that the grandfather’s clock gave you the right time. Just as in golf finding the right image to convey and explain a scientific notion idea can be most useful.

It is quite possible that if golfers would be asked to really go max that many, without being aware, would raise up on their toes through impact. The body knows things all by itself.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,

The element that is shaping the force F in a correct and most effective way should lead away the other one all along the motion...while the latter's task is to not disturb the positive torque to vanish too early in the swing...I am not a physician and hardly brilliant but it becomes sort of obvious...

Correct me if I'm going away from a good track...

It's one of the most fascinating threads on the Forum for sure...I wish there is more such TRUE science engaged in the golf swing...everything would be much easier to trust and, consequently, to execute, IMO.


Cheers

Dariusz,

I like your intuitive efforts to translate things into feel. In a future post I will have more information on the nature of the forces in the down swing.

 

[mandrin]

I am new to this site, TGM and "golf science", so i am sure I am all wrong, but interested to hear your ideas and see the thread continue.

Could it be that the amount of torque applied to roll the club affects how fast the club catches up the hands more than CF alone?

lasse,

There is not one fixed pattern but many, in golf. You can have a down stroke swing where you let things happen, and on the other end of the scale, one where there is definite conscious effort employed. So the answer to your question is not a clean yes or no, it all depends.

However generally rolling of the arms is not a major but rather a minor contributor to torque in the down swing. I feel that rolling is primarily related to clubface orientation and only secondary to producing clubhead velocity.

Letting things happen as they are controlled by the dynamic inertial forces appears to me superior to forcing things in a down swing with a conscious control effort, as timing is likely superior with a more relaxed type of swing.

 

[lasse]

lasse,

There is not one fixed pattern but many, in golf. You can have a down stroke swing where you let things happen, and on the other end of the scale, one where there is definite conscious effort employed. So the answer to your question is not a clean yes or no, it all depends.

However generally rolling of the arms is not a major but rather a minor contributor to torque in the down swing. I feel that rolling is primarily related to clubface orientation and only secondary to producing clubhead velocity.

Letting things happen as they are controlled by the dynamic inertial forces appears to me superior to forcing things in a down swing with a conscious control effort, as timing is likely superior with a more relaxed type of swing.

Understood, it was a wild guess but i was considering what you said about how the rolling of the clubhead did not seem take place until the arms and the shaft was near their inline condition and thought perhaps a greater rolling force could speed up the process of the shaft catching up with the arms.

Anyway, I am having a hard time figuring out how any other force than CF could be responsible for the release. Please continue!