Revisiting Swinging Left.
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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IMHO, a "good" player's stance/alignment is the "result" of his golf swing, not the other way around. Certain players "need" to aim left, or right, play the ball back in their stance or forward to accomodate their motion and to create the shot shape they desire. Waaaaay to much emphasis on alignment, IMO.
Dariusz J.
New member
If you want something to be a result of something it must not preceed / must follow it as well. First stance, than swing. Granted, the stance may be a derivative of one's experiences but never a result of something that happens later.
Cheers
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IMHO, a "good" player's stance/alignment is the "result" of his golf swing, not the other way around. Certain players "need" to aim left, or right, play the ball back in their stance or forward to accomodate their motion and to create the shot shape they desire. Waaaaay to much emphasis on alignment, IMO.
Agreed. I have found it helpful to "find" a consistent ball flight, then figure how to aim it. I am sure that is how Trevino figured it out. Sadly, I was "line-obsessed" as a youngster. One of my favorite shots to hit into a stiff wind is a pull-draw. I enjoy the expression on playing partner's face when I aim way right...come "over the top of it"...and still hit it at the target! Understanding the d-plane has given me the confidence to try all kinds of shots. I love hitting a squirrely looking pull-cut on a left to right dogleg on my home course, it tends to go longer than a bombed straight ball (attempting to cut the corner), because it fits the contours of the hole shape i.e. golf.
Agreed. I have found it helpful to "find" a consistent ball flight, then figure how to aim it. I am sure that is how Trevino figured it out. Sadly, I was "line-obsessed" as a youngster. One of my favorite shots to hit into a stiff wind is a pull-draw. I enjoy the expression on playing partner's face when I aim way right...come "over the top of it"...and still hit it at the target! Understanding the d-plane has given me the confidence to try all kinds of shots. I love hitting a squirrely looking pull-cut on a left to right dogleg on my home course, it tends to go longer than a bombed straight ball (attempting to cut the corner), because it fits the contours of the hole shape i.e. golf.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and just, disagree with you there...
Ball position, distance from the ball and alignment are all things that MUST be customized. There is no absolute. Thus the stance, in its entirety, must be a result.
Even Ben Hogan learned to hit the ball before someone told him what to do.
Dariusz J.
New member
Excuse me, but this is just wrong. You may (and perhaps should) work out the correct basic stance principles through experiments but every shot is different and a player must adjust the stance before each shot taking into account some variables. First verification of conditions, then stance, then swing. Swing is, among others, a product of a stance. Bad stance never brings a great swing, a great swing could have happened only because the stance was great.
There is certainly a macroscale absolute. Same as there is an absolute for each possible activity of humans in macroscale, no matter if it is painting walls or curling on ice.
Cheers
Seriously Darius, never have you uttered a more ridiculous comment.
Not only does the stance have "NOTHING" to do with the swing, but it has "NEVER" resulted in a good swing. Ever. Period.
A great backswing has never even produced a good golf shot. In history. Ever.
Not even open for debate.
Dariusz J.
New member
What ??? Stance have nothing to do with swing ? Never resulted in a good swing ? So why the greats sacrificed a lot of pages to stance ? Saying that stance is not important you are likely to say that grip is not important as well - let's allign and everything goes...ROFL.
Do we change topics now ? Backswing ? Well, good backswing gives chances for good downswing, bad backswing limits these chances sometimes to zero. What's to or not to debate here ? What's better to do - to have a good backswing or a bad one ?
Cheers
I'm not backing off anything. A stance may increase your chances of good contact, but only after repetition. So, repetition could create the stance, ball position and alignment...after the fact. Proof? Take a non-golfer, give them Ben's grip, set-up, stance and clubs and stand back. Nothing good will happen. Ever.
To say that Ben Hogan's stance preference would work for anyone other than Ben Hogan is folly, Dariusz. There are NO absolutes.
Dariusz J.
New member
I'll start from the end - you offend me for the second time and I am forced to tell you that: there are absolutes in every possible activity of a human; thinking otherwise what you do is not only extremely folly but also naive. The very Hogan you quote used to say: "no matter how people may differ anatomically, the mechanics are the same, assuming no physical deformity".
Want a challenge ? I'll teach best biokinetic setup with 20 minutes - you will have TrackMan and all other shit you want for 20 minutes, but you cannot say a thing on stance and grip - wanna bet who makes an absolute beginner reach green from tee with lesser amount of strokes ?
Think !
Cheers
Oh Dariusz. I've been teaching for a long time. I would take that bet.
BTW, what AREN'T you allowed to tell them?
While you're at it, I'll bet you could come up with the exact measurements and ball position of Bantam Ben. Why not sell a cardboard cutout of his set-up and sell it? Because it only worked for him, that's why.
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mjstrong
New
Since it's related to this thread:
I recently crunched some data from a study that another pro and myself performed back in the Spring. We had 5 different local tournament professionals hit a variety of shots (stock, intentional fade, intentional draw - 6i & Driver). These pros were wearing a K-Vest (I know it's not the highest grade of 3D body measurement devices) and monitored by Flightscope (likewise).
Over the entire data set, the body variable that most highly correlated to the Horizontal Plane numbers of each shot was the Hips' alignment at address.
I have always stated that I thought the shoulders were the more important body part to get the alignment down, but because of the varying amount of axis tilts (Upper Body Side Bend) experienced, the Pelvis/Hips were a much better indicator of HSP. [Remember Brian's rule about the amount of shoulder turn = amount of shoulder tilt at impact - http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...-manzella-original-concept-tilt-vs-open.html]
I recently crunched some data from a study that another pro and myself performed back in the Spring. We had 5 different local tournament professionals hit a variety of shots (stock, intentional fade, intentional draw - 6i & Driver). These pros were wearing a K-Vest (I know it's not the highest grade of 3D body measurement devices) and monitored by Flightscope (likewise).
Over the entire data set, the body variable that most highly correlated to the Horizontal Plane numbers of each shot was the Hips' alignment at address.
I have always stated that I thought the shoulders were the more important body part to get the alignment down, but because of the varying amount of axis tilts (Upper Body Side Bend) experienced, the Pelvis/Hips were a much better indicator of HSP. [Remember Brian's rule about the amount of shoulder turn = amount of shoulder tilt at impact - http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...-manzella-original-concept-tilt-vs-open.html]
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Sorry JD, I got go with EK.
Easy money.
Easy money.
Dariusz J.
New member
Whatever you want that does not refer to setup or grip or backswing. And do not start a war because it will end bad for you this way or another. I did not start with offending you, BTW.
Good night.
P.S. Actually, I "sell it" LOL. My knowledge is for free and published widely. If you've read carefully advices of the very this thread, you'd have googled "diagonal stance" and maybe learnt something for free.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Dariusz,
We have quite an unusual site.
Hundreds of golf pros from all over the world. Most don't post, but as a non-competive player, and non-working golf teacher, you need to show respect to the ones who—like Eric—are both.
We have quite an unusual site.
Hundreds of golf pros from all over the world. Most don't post, but as a non-competive player, and non-working golf teacher, you need to show respect to the ones who—like Eric—are both.
Dariusz J.
New member
I believe AntiSummit III (when you have med doctors) will change your attitude, BM. Easily.
Cheers
Dariusz J.
New member
I know that. That's why your site is the only one (except mine and SiTD) that I attend. But it was not me who start to offend first. I cannot feel in English what is offensive or not, but it was not me who used the words "foolly" or something. I was offended many times on your site and you know it well but still here from 2006. I do not care who is who - if my beloved Polish Pope was wrong I'd have said it to Him...God forgive me.
I am who I am. Period.
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