Richie3Jack on Tiger's Knee

[Lifter]

This is an excellent blog post so I thought I'd link to it:

Richie3Jack Golf Blog: Tiger And The Knee

I thought this was the best part:

I was thinking about the notable long hitters over the years and their size. Here’s the main long ball hitters I could think of:

Sam Snead
Arnold Palmer
Mike Souchak
Jack Nicklaus
John Daly
Greg Norman
Davis Love III
Phil Mickelson


Outside of Souchak, none of these players came off as overly muscular people. Don’t get me wrong, some of these guys were in good physical condition and some had very strong hands. But as far as having Tiger’s muscle mass, Souchak is the only one of the group that comes close IMO. In fact, Nicklaus was known as ‘Fat Jack’ and Daly…well, was sponsored by Hooters for awhile.

Here’s today’s top driving distance golfers:

Dustin Johnson
Robert Garrigus
Gary Woodland
JB Holmes
Bubba Watson

And none of these golfers have the muscle mass that Tiger has either.

I think the golfing world has probably overdone the physical fitness part for golfers, particularly the top players on Tour.​

 

[ScottRob]

Snead was a beast. There is no doubt in my mind that Jack nicklaus was a better all-rounder than Tiger. Sure, Jack was overweight, not sure how fat he really was. There is no doubt that he had more inherent muscle mass than Tiger. My hat is off to Tiger for getting after it in the gym. Largely a waste of his time (taking it to the extremes that he has) and he will continue to pay the price. I think a component of athletic prowess that is often ignored is longevity. On that account I do not think Tiger will match the Bear. Snead? Forget about it!

As far as physical specimens go Tiger is no Dustin Johnson! I agree that it has been taken too far.

 

[birly-shirly]

Maybe it's just me, but if I was writing a blog and really didn't want to accuse Tiger of doing steroids or HGH, then I probably wouldn't have written:

"Personally, Tiger Woods reminds me a bit of former NFL Wide Receiver, David Boston. Boston was a high profile Wide Receiver for the Arizona Cardinals who wound up getting heavily into bodybuilding. He was known for his unusual dedication and working with his own personal trainer who had controversial methods and techniques. There was also rampant accusations of steroid and HGH abuse."

Surely there could be found more effective ways of not making that accusation...

For what it's worth, I'm not sure either that Tiger is much more muscular than Jack, Arnie, Snead or Norman. Or Faldo for that matter. And he might carry less muscle than Angel Cabrera - albeit less well concealed

I'm always a little bit leery of this argument being made by golfers that physical fitness, or strength, is counter-productive. So many of the best golfers have looked like athletes to me.

 

[mgranato]

Speed = distance, period. The idea that weight training will create speed is on the same level as path determines starting direction. Unless of course you have speed and strength, then you can deliver the "heavy hit"..... c'mon.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I've mentioned this elsewhere. I've had quite a few friends who have taken HGH and/or steroids. I've never done them myself, but I do know quite a bit about them.

Anyway, I was watching something on HBO (IIRC) on young athletes and steroids. One individual was Rob Garibaldi, a baseball player at Southern Cal who committed suicide and was a rampant user.

If you ever looked at Garibaldi, even in the midst of his usage, he didn't look like a user. He looked like your typical athlete who was in good shape with 'results' that were easily attainable. And a few of my friends who used HGH, which has 'better' side effects than roids, had similar experiences. You really couldn't tell that they were using, they just looked like they were in good physical condition.

So to me, I just wouldn't be surprised if just about any pro athlete came out and admitted to using.

I understand the point about the hazards of comparing him to David Boston. But, I couldn't quite think of another example as good or as better, of an athlete that put on too much muscle mass. In particular Boston because his trainer in particular said that the NFL trainers "didn't know what they were talking about" and was later proven to be the kook that he is.

But to me...wouldn't surprise me if Tiger did use HGH/roids, but I'm not going to accuse him because well...it wouldn't surprise me if he never used either. I think there's a difference, some think it's hypocritical. Oh well.





3JACK

 

[rogerdodger]

This is an excellent blog post so I thought I'd link to it:

Richie3Jack Golf Blog: Tiger And The Knee

I thought this was the best part:

I was thinking about the notable long hitters over the years and their size. Here’s the main long ball hitters I could think of:

Sam Snead
Arnold Palmer
Mike Souchak
Jack Nicklaus
John Daly
Greg Norman
Davis Love III
Phil Mickelson


Outside of Souchak, none of these players came off as overly muscular people. Don’t get me wrong, some of these guys were in good physical condition and some had very strong hands. But as far as having Tiger’s muscle mass, Souchak is the only one of the group that comes close IMO. In fact, Nicklaus was known as ‘Fat Jack’ and Daly…well, was sponsored by Hooters for awhile.

Here’s today’s top driving distance golfers:

Dustin Johnson
Robert Garrigus
Gary Woodland
JB Holmes
Bubba Watson

And none of these golfers have the muscle mass that Tiger has either.

I think the golfing world has probably overdone the physical fitness part for golfers, particularly the top players on Tour.​

You cannot overdo physical fitness. You can overdo changing your body musclewise. Look at Gary Player, extraordinarily fit when he was younger, but never to the point of having too much muscle for his frame. Tiger was lean in 1997 and hit the ball tremendous distances. My view is he simply put more muscle on his frame than his frame could handle. Hence the breakdown. Souchak was a tremendous football player in college, natural athlete. Nicklaus had 29 inch thighs, played basketball, football and baseball in high school and apparently could have played them in college had he not focused on golf. The guys listed were naturally athletic to the nth degree. I think we are born to handle a certain amount of weight, muscle on our frame. Go over it in either weight or muscle, things happen. Think about it, as Tiger got more muscular, he got shorter. The list 3jack provides all were great athletes.

 

[ZAP]

Arnie was an animal. Jack I am betting was pretty strong as well. Tiger hit it nine miles as a skinny kid. I do think you can develop power through strength training but strength does not equal power.

 

[Richie3Jack]

You cannot overdo physical fitness. You can overdo changing your body musclewise. Look at Gary Player, extraordinarily fit when he was younger, but never to the point of having too much muscle for his frame. Tiger was lean in 1997 and hit the ball tremendous distances. My view is he simply put more muscle on his frame than his frame could handle. Hence the breakdown. Souchak was a tremendous football player in college, natural athlete. Nicklaus had 29 inch thighs, played basketball, football and baseball in high school and apparently could have played them in college had he not focused on golf. The guys listed were naturally athletic to the nth degree. I think we are born to handle a certain amount of weight, muscle on our frame. Go over it in either weight or muscle, things happen. Think about it, as Tiger got more muscular, he got shorter. The list 3jack provides all were great athletes.

I do agree with this.

I should not have used 'fitness' as a term as something you can 'overdo.' But I think that golf exercise regimens have been overdone when it comes to weight lifting.









3JACK

 

[Erik_K]

You cannot overdo physical fitness. You can overdo changing your body musclewise. Look at Gary Player, extraordinarily fit when he was younger, but never to the point of having too much muscle for his frame. Tiger was lean in 1997 and hit the ball tremendous distances. My view is he simply put more muscle on his frame than his frame could handle. Hence the breakdown. Souchak was a tremendous football player in college, natural athlete. Nicklaus had 29 inch thighs, played basketball, football and baseball in high school and apparently could have played them in college had he not focused on golf. The guys listed were naturally athletic to the nth degree. I think we are born to handle a certain amount of weight, muscle on our frame. Go over it in either weight or muscle, things happen. Think about it, as Tiger got more muscular, he got shorter. The list 3jack provides all were great athletes.

Those are good points, rogerdodger.

I don't have a link to Richie's original blog, so I probably can't comment accurately on this topic. Are we trying to examine Tiger's current injury woes and correlate them to his workout activities? Or are we trying to say that Tiger's physique is his current limitation and not swing technique?

For all we know Tiger could have avoided the gym entirely and still had knee (and other joint) problems. As violently as he swings the club, maybe the added mass has helped him last this long. I also don't have access to Tiger's workout (and diet) programs vs when he was winning a bunch of majors. He was pretty consistent (at winning majors) from 1997 - 2008. It seems reasonable to assume he was working out during that span. I don't remember too many people questing his body composition and weight lifting habits when he virtually unbeatable during that span. He also won over 50 times (including majors) over the aforementioned time period.

Delivering the club head, solidy, to the ball is what counts. Maybe the people Richie mentioned in his list did that better than most people. Technique, without question, is every bit as important as physical fitness. Dustin, Davis Love, Phil, and Daly probably can't deadlift 400+ lbs, or bench anywhere near 300 lbs but these guys aren't small, puny, golfers either - Phil is well over 6 ft tall. Dustin Johnson is like 6' 4" - maybe there's something to be said about being a tall lanky golfer and the ability to nuke the ball with that body 'type?'

 

[dbl]

Link is in second line of first post.

 

[aaron_lohan]

I think the damage to Tiger's knee was a product of his swing and all the running he did on hard surfaces; put them two together and its a lot of stress on his knee and given his fairly small bone structure he is going to have problems.

Someone said lifting weights can't increase speed, of course it can if you do it right look at sprinters, throwers, swimmers and any other athlete who needs speed- they all train with weights to increase their speed. Looking at the workout programme that Tiger talks about on his website he clearly is training wrong becuase he focuses on high reps and isolation exercises which is more of a bodybuilder programme but is useless for somebody who wants to increase speed.

 

[aaron_lohan]

I do agree with this.

But I think that golf exercise regimens have been overdone when it comes to weight lifting.



3JACK

Not been overdone, but they have been done completely wrong especially if the regime on Tiger's website and a few others is indicative of the type of programmes tour players do.

 

[GPM1985]

I don't think Tiger is all that muscular. 6'1 and 180ish won't draw any second looks in a serious gym. Also, why must Tiger's injuries be linked to steroid usage? What about all the other lower-profile golfers who have recurring golf-related impairments? Are they juicing too?

I like Tiger but sometimes I think the hype he generates is too much of a distraction. Not that the blame lies squarely on his shoulders. The media and fans are equally culpable. All I know is that the incessant scandal-craving is just bad for the game, and for sports and society in general.

 

[BrendanC]

There is 'power' and there is 'allowing speed to happen' - I think golfers do the latter.

Some kids are fast at running. Some are not, and if you don't have it, you can't get it.

There are so many top class fat and pot bellied golfers, I find it hard to take the fitness argument that seriously.

Rory McIlroy played pretty well - and hit it pretty far - as a portly teenager. He is now skinny and still bombs it.

BTW - the other guy who recently picked up a knee injury is Pádraig Harrington. Another guy who works out and does the fitness thing. He did it playing with his kids and aggravated it during Quail Hollow and the Players. Will miss the PGA Championship at Wentworth next week as a result.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Snead, Palmer, and Jack were Very strong muscular people from those i have talked to; you can be strong and have a larger layer of fat over it and not be perceived as "muscular."

Also, JB Holmes is built like Popeye so i disagree with you there too. He's short and stout with gigantic forearms. Also what about Mike Austin? He was huge and hit it a long way too; so are most of the long drive guys with the exception of sadlowski.

Personally, i believe it's 95% genetic, 2% technique, 1% strength. (that is with no scientific study lol)

 

[spktho]

Personally, i believe it's 95% genetic, 2% technique, 1% strength. (that is with no scientific study lol)

In a professional athlete the genetic component is not only their ability to perform the specific athletic move(s). It is also the genetics to recover following training and/or the athletic event. I have played with and coached some outstanding baseball players who have been drafted and played pro ball. Many of them only lasted about 5 years. I have asked them why they stopped or got released and beside the normal "they signed a bonus baby" response they would all say it is rough on the body and extremely difficult to go out and play every day or near every day at an optimal level. "As soon as you report, you never feel 100%" is a common response.

Golf is a little different animal, but if you train like in other sports there will be wear and tear on the body that take their toll on your performance.

 

[Erik_K]

Link is in second line of first post.

Whoops! Didn't realize that was a link!

 

[curtisj76]

Samuel J. Snead was very FLEXIBLE.

 

[AndyC]

I think the damage to Tiger's knee was a product of his swing and all the running he did on hard surfaces; put them two together and its a lot of stress on his knee and given his fairly small bone structure he is going to have problems.

When Tiger started his pro career my wife and I both watched him walk and said that he would have knee problems in the future. He walked/walks with splayed feet which shows that his hips and knees are out of alignment. Running on out of aligned knees is like driving a car that is out of alignment, the tires or in this case the knees will wear out.

 

[ScottRob]

Interesting observation about tiger's gait. I am on my second reading of Joey Diovisalvi's book Fix Your Body, Fix Your Swing. The number of physical variables that can impact the outcome is dizzying. Balance seems to be a key. Ability to tilt the pelvis, shoulder protraction and retraction are things he emphasizes. He states "Training your body to make it as strong as it can be - from a biomechanical perspective-for golf means working on a lot of muscles and body parts that you probably never thought to work on." Examples: subscapularis rotates the arms internally, while folks focus on the deltoids. Tightness in pecs and lats (people prefer to work on these muscles) apparently leaves the obliques, the semispinalis, the multifidus, and the rotatores, the muscles that are responsible for rotating around the spine, to their own devices. This is all new to me. I follow a pretty standard weight lifting routine that focuses of the primary movers. Any opinions?