Sergio Garcia & The Tumble

[Matt Bryda]

Would it help if I aimed more left and found a way to get the face more open?

Wulsy,

You could adjust your set up by raising your hands and undoing some of the pushed down look at address (heel of club and hands/arms towards each other) Go towards a NHA type of set up look.

 

[wulsy]

Thanks again for the input, very much appreciated.

Matt: what do you think would change if I was to change the setup as you suggest?

Lindsey, Kevin: how would you suggest changing the face angle? Grip? Shaft rotation? Or would it change if I changed the HSP (left) and ball position (right)?

 

[rprevost]

Soft Draw and Never Hook Again seem to have two different downswing patterns: SD tosses, while NHA shakes the sugar. Can someone explain how the tumble might relate to those two downswing patterns?

 

[Matt Bryda]

Thanks again for the input, very much appreciated.

Matt: what do you think would change if I was to change the setup as you suggest?

Lindsey, Kevin: how would you suggest changing the face angle? Grip? Shaft rotation? Or would it change if I changed the HSP (left) and ball position (right)?

Might make it easier to rotate more open.

 

[fanofSnead]

NHA and the tumble?

Kevin or Lyndsey,

I would like to know how, or if I even need to think about the tumble if Im using the NHA pattern? I use "drop the bag of sugar" on the ball vs. "shake the sugar" through impact.

thanks fellas

 

[wulsy]

Might make it easier to rotate more open.

Tumble can help an underplane issue but in and of itself does not cure and inside out path.

Your overturned and overleaned upper body and clubface angle have more to do with the inside path IMO

Interesting point Kevin.

Face is definitely an issue, but a great move none the less

Lindsey, where in the swing is the face too closed?

I was thinking about you guys' comments and would like to ask the following questions which may help me and others to better understand both where and how tumble can be used to help, but also the limitiations of tumble in terms of curing in-to-out paths:

Tumbling the shaft and the face is tumble, right?

If I tumble the face (turn the sweetspot off the plane) I am effectively CLOSING the face, right?

If I tumble the shaft I am effectively "closing the shaft" (in you guys' terminology) right?

If I aim and swing left my clubhead path is "leftish", or at least less to the right.

So how do I avoid shots that go left?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Wulsy,

Face must be closed throughout. Look closely at the top of your swing and again at last parallel. If you think of the shaft as one big clubface it may help. At some point the clubhead must swing out and when it does it will apply the face angle. You can tumble with a cupped wrist or a flat wrist or somewhere in between. If the face is in too strong a position you will try to swing lower or under to open it and the shaft. You are answering your own questions. You swing left and hit it left - clubface

Oh and one more thing. I don't know if I ever suggested turning the face down or tumbling the face independently. You should be able to tumble the shaft and take care of the face all in move unless you lag it open in the transition.

Hope that makes sense

 

[wulsy]

Thanks again Lindsey.

Was thinking that lagging the sweetspot a lá BManz was pretty much in tune with tumbling the face. I think it was Kevin who mentioned the face tumble.

I think I need to grip it weaker (left hand) to get the face more open. Cupping doesn't feel right to me at all, probably because of my downarching history. There are no other possibilities, right?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Thanks again Lindsey.

Was thinking that lagging the sweetspot a lá BManz was pretty much in tune with tumbling the face. I think it was Kevin who mentioned the face tumble.

I think I need to grip it weaker (left hand) to get the face more open. Cupping doesn't feel right to me at all, probably because of my downarching history. There are no other possibilities, right?

Completely depends on you. You obviously have created a swing over time that wants to be optimal as far as plane, loading and sequence. Why would you stop now? So yes, there are other possibilities, but you will not be satisfied.

 

[DCgolf]

You can and do

You have a fine move there. You've got the compatibility I look for in really good swings: good width back and the requisite narrowing lag coming down. Neither work without the other but you have both...

 

[wulsy]

Completely depends on you. You obviously have created a swing over time that wants to be optimal as far as plane, loading and sequence. Why would you stop now? So yes, there are other possibilities, but you will not be satisfied.

My comment regarding other possibilities was more related only to getting the face a tad more open, rather then a fundamental change to the swing (thats assuming that I understand your comment regading other possibilities correctly).

Assuming no major overhaul:
Possibility 1: weaker left hand grip
Possibility 2: more cupped left hand into impact

Is there another possibility (without a major overhaul)?

If there is another possibility which entails bigger changes what (generally speaking) would it entail?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

My comment regarding other possibilities was more related only to getting the face a tad more open, rather then a fundamental change to the swing (thats assuming that I understand your comment regading other possibilities correctly).

Assuming no major overhaul:
Possibility 1: weaker left hand grip
Possibility 2: more cupped left hand into impact

Is there another possibility (without a major overhaul)?

If there is another possibility which entails bigger changes what (generally speaking) would it entail?

I understand now.

Definitely don't start cupping.

I don't think you need to do much at all. If you can just configure the grip so the face is a "little" more open, you will be able to swing left without fear of left to left. In my opinion, it's as simple as that.

 

[wulsy]

Thanks Lindsey. I should be able to do that.

I tried it today: club feels strange, like its freewheeling (reverse tumbling more and for longer than before). Then I seem to have more problems getting it to tumble. Seems like I can get the swing right with the face shut, but not with the face neutral/open. Probably soemthing to do with the way the wrists are interacting a lá GM grip combos.

So I will try to find the right grip which allows me to get the tumble under control without hitting pushes, draws and hooks.

 

[natep]

Possibly. As long as you can control how the shaft is aligned all the way down post transition, anything can work. Flying right elbows TEND to cause across the line which, in my opinion, could promote a reverse tumble all the way down - hideous.

I play across the line and have to "time" my tumble. This is because coming out of transition I am still a bit steep. I then have to reverse tumble to place the shaft in a place where I can apply a squaring effect (tumble) on the shaft/clubface. This is the double move downswing that I abhor!

How is this double move working out for you? I used to hit the ball great swinging like this, although eventually I convinced myself that I needed to fix it. But the thing is, when I swing inline, flatter and/or laid off, I often try to kill it from the start of the downswing, resulting in terrible tempo and typically a loss of balance after impact. It's like I feel that I dont have enough time to accelerate the club adequately, and combined with the fact that its just "one move" to the ball, I often cant help myself and try and murder the ball from the top.

When I swing steeper and across the line, my tempo and balance is improved 100 fold because I know I cant go at it 100% from the top, I have to back it up first. This seems to provide a great timing mechanism for my swing. I also feel more comfortable with high hands at the top since I feel like I have more time/room to accelerate the club, and I also find it much easier to get a vertical (and in) hand path on the downswing from this position.

It does seem a bit timing dependent, and I usually hit pushes when I dont get the hand path correct near impact. Anyway, I was just curious about whether or not you have had any huge issues with this "double move", since I have only started experimenting with this again fairly recently.

Also, thanks again guys for all your contributions.

 

[Kevin Shields]

There's nothing wrong with a longer swing across the line as long as you can adhere to a few necessary fundamentals. Its short and across that usually doesnt work, with few exceptions.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

natep, I have been across the line my entire golfing life. I have played laid off/parallel plane, but only through full manual control and it's exhausting guiding the shaft all over the place. I could practice laying it off till the end of time and it would not become ingrained. I can hit it good, but never straight. I always either have to hook it or fade it. I am kinda just accepting the "steep to not as steep and tumble" downswing. It sucks, but I'm a man, I'm 40 (Oklahoma ST coach quote) and I just wanna let it ride and PLAY the best I can.

 

[faux_maestro]

natep, I have been across the line my entire golfing life. I have played laid off/parallel plane, but only through full manual control and it's exhausting guiding the shaft all over the place. I could practice laying it off till the end of time and it would not become ingrained. I can hit good, but never straight. I always either have to hook it or fade it. I am kinda just accepting the "steep to not to steep and tumble" downswing. It sucks, but I'm a man, I'm 40 (Oklahoma ST coach quote) and I just wanna let it ride and PLAY the best I can.

 

[magicmarker]

I believe one of the most difficult things about teaching golf swing mechanics is that we always tend to look at models. Even worse, we start trying to match "body" positions with disregard to what the only thing that matters is doing, the club. I would even be as bold to say that many swings, with huge hip rotational elements, are not as efficient due to the player being too flexible.

Like a chain on a bicycle. If there is too much slack in the chain (flexibility) think of how far you have to move the crank before it pulls the the chain tight, only then can work be done. I believe that players who have a lot of flexibility HAVE to look like Sergio, before they can begin to pull the club around through impact.

A good friend of mine who is an incredible player has this very issue, he is so flexible that he almost cannot put enough torque on the club with his pivot. His hips are so open to the target and his chest is still so far behind that he is always under plane and swing out to the right. Power with this type of player almost always comes from float loading as well as there is a point where too much flexibility also represents a lack of strength.

This describes me to a tee. Is there a good exercise or drill to compliment the float loading with another source of power. How does this player you describe tighten the chain, or does the player primarily float load to tighten the slack?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

This describes me to a tee. Is there a good exercise or drill to compliment the float loading with another source of power. How does this player you describe tighten the chain, or does the player primarily float load to tighten the slack?

Just remember you can use the muscles in the trunk to turn your chest/lead shoulder through. You don't have to ONLY use your legs and hips. If you're truly a float loading, under plane, inside out player,I would suggest looking at Brians Never Hook Again video. You'll learn to get more open and swing left. Actually works really well with float loaders.

 

[magicmarker]

I truly am all of the above. Have been working with NHA for about a month or so, and it has helped A LOT, it did more than I could've ever expected. I hear what you are saying about power coming from somewhere other than just the legs but it isn't a power move for me the way I feel it, its a speed move. I don't have a long swing at all, I sort of just take it back to 3/4 or so and then it just feels like everything clears out of my hands way while pulling the next link, however, the gap between hips and chest can get loose. The carry helped a lot with that though. Any other exercises you or he know of would be appreciated.
What do you think of Gary Woodland? I just love his swing