Shallow swing arc

[Brian Manzella]

Brian, in tiger's stills, it looks like instead of letting the left wrist bend (bubba is just relaxing the hand, not actually flipping), he uses a really hard rotation and the wrist stays flat longer.

Can you talk about this difference? In my mind, it's probably because tiger lives underplane but rotates hard, while bubba probably starts clubface rotation sooner and more gradually.

Nobody is flipping anything.

Silly stuff.

I talked to a PGA Tour instructor today and he told me that handle-dragging has been so prevalent of the tour, that he has a lot of business trying to un drag them.

You just can't see it (the lead wrist going into extension) from a horrible angle to tell, like a face on video.

Does that mean you are up the swanny without a paddle if you are bent pre-impact?

Unless you are trying to do it. Like lob shot.

 

[jewofgolf]

Does that mean you are up the swanny without a paddle if you are bent pre-impact?

That's a flip.

 

[Brian Manzella]

That's a flip.

That's correct.

 

[Keefer]

That's correct.

Isn't a flip the golfer's natural response to centripetal force?

Is golf swing science proving that good golf is best achieved by doing what is totally un-natural?

If so that explains why golf is sooooooooo much harder to get good at than any other sport for most people.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The flip is a gofer either trying to square the face. add loft, get a clubhead to the ball that wouldn't reach otherwise, misplace force across the shaft, or some or all of the above.

NOTHING to do with cetrifrugal force.

 

[jewofgolf]

Isn't a flip the golfer's natural response to centripetal force?

Is golf swing science proving that good golf is best achieved by doing what is totally un-natural?

If so that explains why golf is sooooooooo much harder to get good at than any other sport for most people.

If there was no rolling motion, you might have a point. After impact the hands should be rolling, directing that energy to another direction. Even in the case where the golfer is naturally relaxing the left wrist after impact, the wrists were not actively "flipping" to get there.

 

[Keefer]

The flip is a gofer either trying to square the face. add loft, get a clubhead to the ball that wouldn't reach otherwise, misplace force across the shaft, or some or all of the above.

NOTHING to do with cetrifrugal force.

What happens naturally if the golfer isn't trying to do any of the above? Wouldn't the wrists naturally break at the low point of the swing? If so isn't that a flip?

To not flip the golfer would have to intefer with this natural wrist break by holding off the wrist break by keeping the right wrist bent back or intentionally arching the left wrist thru impact.

Totally un-natural.

 

[Brian Manzella]

If there was no rolling motion, you might have a point. After impact the hands should be rolling, directing that energy to another direction. Even in the case where the golfer is naturally relaxing the left wrist after impact, the wrists were not actively "flipping" to get there.

What happens naturally if the golfer isn't trying to do any of the above? Wouldn't the wrists naturally break at the low point of the swing? If so isn't that a flip?

To not flip the golfer would have to intefer with this natural wrist break by holding off the wrist break by keeping the right wrist bent back or intentionally arching the left wrist thru impact.

Totally un-natural.

Ah....

Yes, if you just swing the club, and put speed into the clubhead, the left wrist would "naturally" bend.

Yes.

 

[zachgolf]

Why distinguish flick from flip? I think this just confuses lot of golfers and would make them uninterested.

Why not just say everybody is flipping/flicking (synonymous), but tell them to just don't flip/flick too early resulting to cup of left wrist at impact, which of course can be desired sometimes if you want to hit it higher.

For as long as it gives me more clubhead speed and I need more height on ball, so what if I'm flipping or flicking.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Zach,

Because they ARE totally different.

The handle-dragging "lobby" is about to get an arse-kicking in the next year or so.

 

[zachgolf]

Zach,

Because they ARE totally different.

The handle-dragging "lobby" is about to get an arse-kicking in the next year or so.

I just meant in their usual or normal meaning or connotation. But I digress, it's your terms. And I like and agree with the differences btw.

Who are the handle draggers? There's someone who still believes on that now? All I can say about those handle draggers are they're missing a lot...a lot of clubhead speed...

 

[jewofgolf]

I just meant in their usual or normal meaning or connotation. But I digress, it's your terms. And I like and agree with the differences btw.

Who are the handle draggers? There's someone who still believes on that now? All I can say about those handle draggers are they're missing a lot...a lot of clubhead speed...

Terms are important - flipping is an active motion of using your wrists to drive the speed into the ball.

The shallow arc, "gathering up the marbles", or "flicking", is all about letting the clubhead shallow out. The motion may look similar to a "late flip", but it is much different, all driven by the "intent" of the move.

 

[Keefer]

Wouldn't setting up at address (with your irons) with some forward shaft lean help prevent flipping? If the hands are set up more towards the left thigh it naturally arches the left wrist. It also automatically takes out a lot of cup in the left wrist at the top.

Everything is already built in to help prevent the early cupping / release or flip at impact.

Opposed to mid body hands (at address) where a flip seems to be already built in (cupped left wrist and no forward shaft lean).

 

[Keefer]

Last night Michael Breed said if you want to shallow out your swing just tilt your shoulders to the right.

Basically level shoulders would be more steep and tilted (to the right) shoulders would be more shallow.

Seems simple enough.

 

[mjh116]

Wouldn't setting up at address (with your irons) with some forward shaft lean help prevent flipping? If the hands are set up more towards the left thigh it naturally arches the left wrist. It also automatically takes out a lot of cup in the left wrist at the top.

Everything is already built in to help prevent the early cupping / release or flip at impact.

Opposed to mid body hands (at address) where a flip seems to be already built in (cupped left wrist and no forward shaft lean).

I just noticed the date of this post... Was it an April fools joke?

 

[Keefer]

I just noticed the date of this post... Was it an April fools joke?

Nope. The thread got a little side tracked, that's all. The post you cite was referencing trying to build in at set-up the feel of impact hands (left wrist flexion) by some forward shaft lean at address.

Back to the topic of the original thread. Saw Breed last night talking about how you can shallow your swing by adding more shoulder tilt at address opposed to level shoulders and a steep swing.

Adding some spine tilt or even just some head tilt at address may help also.

I think most people would find adding something to the set-up makes it easier than some dynamic swing-thought you have to do in a split second in swing.

 

[Shot Limit]

Nope. The thread got a little side tracked, that's all. The post you cite was referencing trying to build in at set-up the feel of impact hands (left wrist flexion) by some forward shaft lean at address.

Back to the topic of the original thread. Saw Breed last night talking about how you can shallow your swing by adding more shoulder tilt at address opposed to level shoulders and a steep swing.

Adding some spine tilt or even just some head tilt at address may help also.

I think most people would find adding something to the set-up makes it easier than some dynamic swing-thought you have to do in a split second in swing.

I think you can set up in a multitude of ways that may be helpful and then completely destroy everything good during the backswing, transition and downswing.

 

[Keefer]

I think you can set up in a multitude of ways that may be helpful and then completely destroy everything good during the backswing, transition and downswing.

I would agree. Take the head tilt for example. If you tilt your head to the right where the left cheek is facing the ball and your right ear is closer to your right shoulder (Manzella's water coming out of your ear) this should encourage an inside to outside swing path or hooker's path.

But, if you don't hold that head position thru impact then all is lost.

That said, I still think it's much easier to take care of a problem at set-up (if possible) rather than trying to execute a feel in the swing. As we know perception and reality are usually two separate things when it comes to the golf swing.

 

[Erik_K]

I think you can set up in a multitude of ways that may be helpful and then completely destroy everything good during the backswing, transition and downswing.

Ain't that the truth. Since the swing has so many moving parts, you can get messed up at almost any given point. Clearly the set up is very important but it's very possible that a lot of things can go bad between the setup and impact positions.