Start down

[dsmith2296]

With shoulders?
or hands.

Seems Sergio yanks that left shoulder up back and behind (and starts that process first) and that's how he accomplishes pulling that handle/grip down while leaving the clubhead lagging far behind.

Thoughts?

Archie Swivel

 

[Spike]

I like to start my downswing with my hands with an uncocking motion down, out and through the ball. I feel this gives me greater control over the clubhead. I get 270 carry, am overweight (good on ya Brian, I'm doin' the same) and 53 years old.

P.S. Although the origin of my pivot is different than Brian's preffered, I end up with the same resultant alignments. Except for one. My shoulders only get to 90*.

 

[Brian Manzella]

With shoulders?
or hands.

Seems Sergio yanks that left shoulder up back and behind (and starts that process first) and that's how he accomplishes pulling that handle/grip down while leaving the clubhead lagging far behind.

Thoughts?

Archie Swivel

I prefer the IDEA of the left FOOT starting things.

But Sergio's up and then BACK shoulder ARE a key.

 

[timm]

Brain,

can you explain what you mean by the left foot starting things.

 

[birdie_man]

Step on it!

(squeeze jiuce outta the ground- Manzella)

 

[djm]

In my opinion, you should start the downswing by moving your hips slightly, thus shifting most of your weight to your left instep. The thought of starting with your left foot can work, too, but I think you need to watch out for coming over the top if you think of starting it with your left foot. The reason for that is that you cannot in reality start it with your left foot, as most of your weight is on your right foot at the top of the backswing. Either your hips, your shoulders or both must move to shift weight to your left foot. I prefer the hips.

 

[Perfect Impact]

Otherwise known as walking, shifting your weight, from the right heel to the left heel. David Lee in Gravity Golf called it "falling," which of course it is.

And waiting for gravity to accomplish it rather than muscling it is why we admire Els and Couples and so many others with a smooth tempo.

They don't fight gravity. They cooperate with it!

 

[birdmeal]

I, too, have problems initiating the downswing. Are the arms supposed to be very loose (no forearm or deltoid tightening), or should I actively try to pull the club down with my left hand?

 

[Perfect Impact]

If the rope connecting the tow car and the car being pulled is tight, the instant the tow car moves the other car starts moving. I am not in favor of spaghetti loose slack in a swing: so I advise firming up the arms and joints in such a way that the pivot moves the club immediately (actually, the weight shift occurs just before the top of the swing is reached...) so as the hips go left, except for natural elasticity of the body, the shoulders move instantly and bring the arms and hands with them. Leaving too much slack in the arms and wrists is like having an erector set thingee put together but without the nuts and bolts being tightened: it lacks sufficient structural integrity: same thing on a skyscraper: the bolts and joints connecting the stories must indeed be tight.

Excessive slack might exist in the left elbow, the left wrist, the right knee, the left arm against the pec, and the fingers. When it is obvious and really excessive, it is called "overswing" - - which amounts to faulty connection.

 

[joeparr]

hogan school

A friend of mine went to california from connecticut for a few days at a hogan school. I ask what was their theory. He said they use a right arm takaway, starting with the right knee in the impact position. I ask what starts the down swing? He said that when you take the club away with the forearm( you get a real good turn) your left knee goes toward the right knee and the left knee starts the down swing. This was a quick talk while passing on the course. Any one know of this school.

 

[azgolfer]

To me, you step on your left foot, just like you would to throw a ball. Your arms drop and the club flattens, because you can only do one conscious action at a time. I'll bet Sergio has extremely relaxed arms at the top, which lets them fall a long way while he steps on his left foot.

 

[mrodock]

I'll bet Sergio has extremely relaxed arms at the top, which lets them fall a long way while he steps on his left foot.

intriguing analysis!

 

[dsmith2296]

Good points, by I meant to narrow the focus to the action of the shoulders-- compare and contrast Sergio's with Annika's. Annika seems to have more level shoulders in the follow through, whereas Sergio's left shoulders goes WAY WAY up and back. My theory is that it is this move with the left shoulder that allows the handle/grip to move toward the inside/aft quadrant while the clubhead lags far behind and the hands stay cocked, setting up the snap release. I think this move allows him to 'down cock'. It [left shoulder] seems to me to be the only muscle group which would allow a golfer to pull the grip down whilst leaving the clubhead above the head. Make sense?

When I perform the above-described left shoulder action, I hit the ball with a lot of ZIP, but I hit it REALLY high. When I add to it a 'high hands' finish, I hit really high fades.

 

[Spike]

To me, you step on your left foot, just like you would to throw a ball. Your arms drop and the club flattens, because you can only do one conscious action at a time. I'll bet Sergio has extremely relaxed arms at the top, which lets them fall a long way while he steps on his left foot.

Wouldn't it be more precise to say that the left foot is "reacting" to the forces applied to the ball when you are throwing?

 

[azgolfer]

Wouldn't it be more precise to say that the left foot is "reacting" to the forces applied to the ball when you are throwing?

I was trying to do this at the range. With all the thinking about all the body parts, I had forgotten what I learned as a kid, which is that to swing or throw, the first thing you do is step on your left foot, not timidly, not gradually. What I realize is that I can't do this yet in my golf swing. Your left leg has to have a lot of strength. Also you have to trust your hands and arms to drop while you are doing this, and (I think) this means they have to be in a position that allows the club to flatten out during this drop.

 

[birdmeal]

So for someone like me, who gets to the top of the swing and gets stuck with no clue what to do next, what would be a good recommendation to start down? I've tried to think about moving my left shoulder up the plane, but I tend to leave all my weight on the right side when doing this.

 

[azgolfer]

So for someone like me, who gets to the top of the swing and gets stuck with no clue what to do next, what would be a good recommendation to start down? I've tried to think about moving my left shoulder up the plane, but I tend to leave all my weight on the right side when doing this.

If you want to try my theory, check that the your weight is on the inside back of your right foot (towards the heel) at the top of the backswing. Then step on your left foot, just like throwing a ball. Your butt should stay back, like Hogan said, sitting on a spectator stick. The left leg should straighten, and you should finish with your weight on the outside of your left heel, with your toe slightly off the ground. You should feel absolutely solid on your left leg for the whole downswing. Takes a lot of strength, but this is why the average pro can leg press 700 pounds.

 

[Spike]

I was trying to do this at the range. With all the thinking about all the body parts, I had forgotten what I learned as a kid, which is that to swing or throw, the first thing you do is step on your left foot, not timidly, not gradually. What I realize is that I can't do this yet in my golf swing. Your left leg has to have a lot of strength. Also you have to trust your hands and arms to drop while you are doing this, and (I think) this means they have to be in a position that allows the club to flatten out during this drop.

I hear ya AZ,

This is one of the reasons I'm asking about "hand height" in the backswing. I don't see pitchers dropping their hand when throwing, rather, I see them lining up with the target and firing the ball at it. All the movements we see in that pitcher's motion are supporting that force delivery line. I'm pretty sure as a kid your first instruction on throwing a ball properly wasn't to plant or press your left foot into the ground.

Some say this dropping of the hands require a lateral shift to the left. Leadbetter says separate the left knee from the right knee. Harvey said pull down the window shade, others say wait for gravity's natural pull.

All these things, imo, require more timing and thinking about doing these things can distract from the main event which is just hitting that ball. Having said that, those things may very well be a requirement due to the idea of needing "high hands".

 

[azgolfer]

All these things, imo, require more timing and thinking about doing these things can distract from the main event which is just hitting that ball. Having said that, those things may very well be a requirement due to the idea of needing "high hands".

I think once you get solid on the left leg, and after your arms drop, you do just "hit the ball".

 

[Spike]

I think once you get solid on the left leg, and after your arms drop, you do just "hit the ball".

Yep. Been there. And you are right about it taking a lot of strength as you mentioned above. I worked the Ballard method for quite some time many years ago and just about blew my left knee out of it's socket. Good thing I was young at the time.

My issue is timing and the coordination it takes.

Timing, imo, are items in sequence. So what is the chain reaction after pressing down on the left foot?

In the theory you described are you not truly pushing against your right foot first to create the left foot step? Or is your upper body just ever so slightly floating a bit left with gravity to give you some mass to step with onto that foot? Just curious.

My main issue is are these types of movements necessary because the hands are high at the top of the backswing or because of a shoulder turn that passes 90*? None of these movements are wrong, imo, but I'd like to know if they are necessary or just preferences.

Nice thread i appreciate this kind of feedback!!