Swing Plane
- Thread starter Axel_WIngert
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Brian Manzella
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So sorry axel...on my honeymoon until about 5 min ago...just got in...will respond tonight.
You bring up a very good discussion.
You bring up a very good discussion.
The story goes:
Jimmy Demaret was playing golf with Ben Hogan, one day, shortly after the 'Fundamentals' was published. Hogan made a poor shot, yes, out-to-in, Demaret asked if he heard the glass breaking.
This comment was from a close friend, not an enemy, and demonstrates, the stand-offishness among pros about swing plane concepts. To mix a metaphor - many ways to skin a cat.
Remember Trevino's arched left wrist at the top, and many other very good ball strikers who were not conventional.
When Brian made his comment about Ping and Henry Griffitts, he was obliquely referring, I think, to how the club is soled and the consequent shaft angle at address.
All these great & very good ball strikers return the club to the address plane (or very very close to) at contact - ie the way the club was designed. It is not of absolute importance of how it got there.
Some people may be able to, and need to, have the plane & the club theoretically perfect at the top - pointing parallel to the target line. I like many others have no concern with this.
Good teachers like Brian know & teach the swing around-ward, a swing with depth. Faldo talks about the concept of the late-hit being really about the club lagging behind you, or your hands. It's late getting there. He also teaches the right wrist turned back on itself, as Brian does, this also encourages a deep circularity in the swing as opposed to a shallow around and up swing. All this promotes an inside path to the ball and militates against the swing getting too steep.
Jimmy Demaret was playing golf with Ben Hogan, one day, shortly after the 'Fundamentals' was published. Hogan made a poor shot, yes, out-to-in, Demaret asked if he heard the glass breaking.
This comment was from a close friend, not an enemy, and demonstrates, the stand-offishness among pros about swing plane concepts. To mix a metaphor - many ways to skin a cat.
Remember Trevino's arched left wrist at the top, and many other very good ball strikers who were not conventional.
When Brian made his comment about Ping and Henry Griffitts, he was obliquely referring, I think, to how the club is soled and the consequent shaft angle at address.
All these great & very good ball strikers return the club to the address plane (or very very close to) at contact - ie the way the club was designed. It is not of absolute importance of how it got there.
Some people may be able to, and need to, have the plane & the club theoretically perfect at the top - pointing parallel to the target line. I like many others have no concern with this.
Good teachers like Brian know & teach the swing around-ward, a swing with depth. Faldo talks about the concept of the late-hit being really about the club lagging behind you, or your hands. It's late getting there. He also teaches the right wrist turned back on itself, as Brian does, this also encourages a deep circularity in the swing as opposed to a shallow around and up swing. All this promotes an inside path to the ball and militates against the swing getting too steep.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
OK....This is how I BLOW UP the Haney (and others) Theory...
At address you are on a 'shaft plane'....next to NO ONE is on this 'shaft plane' at impact, most are on the ELBOW PLANE (slightly steeper) or the TURNED SHOULDER PLANE [Tom Watson] (even steeper).
According to the "haney theory" anyone on a different than the shaft plane at impact would WIFF THE BALL.
This is because this INCORRECT THEORY says the shaft HAS TO BE Parallel to the ORIGINAL SHAFT PLANE....which is OBVIOUSLY wrong.
At address you are on a 'shaft plane'....next to NO ONE is on this 'shaft plane' at impact, most are on the ELBOW PLANE (slightly steeper) or the TURNED SHOULDER PLANE [Tom Watson] (even steeper).
According to the "haney theory" anyone on a different than the shaft plane at impact would WIFF THE BALL.
This is because this INCORRECT THEORY says the shaft HAS TO BE Parallel to the ORIGINAL SHAFT PLANE....which is OBVIOUSLY wrong.
OK,
forget about the original shaft plane for a minute.
Let's say the person is steeper than this at impact (just as you say).
But, I think the question is: 1/2 way down the downswing (when the arms are parallel to the ground or a little below that), does the club point to the plane line or is it PARALLEL to the IMPACT shaft plane? And what is the explanation?
That's what I mean, and I think that's the question that Axel (and whoever asks this type of question)is asking.
I know that many instructors use the ORIGINAL SHAFT PLANE as a reference, but they readily admit that impact is steeper than that. They use it as an easy explainable reference.If these same instructors said that the impact shaft plane was steeper, then they would also say that the shaft, 1/2 way down in the backswing, would be parallel to the impact shaft plane.
forget about the original shaft plane for a minute.
Let's say the person is steeper than this at impact (just as you say).
But, I think the question is: 1/2 way down the downswing (when the arms are parallel to the ground or a little below that), does the club point to the plane line or is it PARALLEL to the IMPACT shaft plane? And what is the explanation?
That's what I mean, and I think that's the question that Axel (and whoever asks this type of question)is asking.
I know that many instructors use the ORIGINAL SHAFT PLANE as a reference, but they readily admit that impact is steeper than that. They use it as an easy explainable reference.If these same instructors said that the impact shaft plane was steeper, then they would also say that the shaft, 1/2 way down in the backswing, would be parallel to the impact shaft plane.
Axel_WIngert
New
Shin-Sha, this position was exactly what I was referring to.
Brian, if you have higher hands at impact doesn't that make the ball go to the right because of the dynamic lie? (Especially if you ad some droop)
Or do you compensate for that by having the toe of the club in the air at adress?
VERY curious,
Axel
Brian, if you have higher hands at impact doesn't that make the ball go to the right because of the dynamic lie? (Especially if you ad some droop)
Or do you compensate for that by having the toe of the club in the air at adress?
VERY curious,
Axel
The shaft plane at impact must be a little steeper than at address.At address(looking from behind the line) there is an angle formed between the arms and the club.At impact it becomes almost a straight line due to the fact I guess that the club weighs around 100 lbs.Ideally then,the toe of the club should point up a bit to compensate.
Addressing the ball with the arms hanging straight down with an angle between it and the club(view from behind the line) appears to be the correct way.I have not seen a great player except for Moe Norman that addresses the ball with the arms outstretched and in a straight line with the club.
Moe actually returns the club to impact shallower than it was at address.
Addressing the ball with the arms hanging straight down with an angle between it and the club(view from behind the line) appears to be the correct way.I have not seen a great player except for Moe Norman that addresses the ball with the arms outstretched and in a straight line with the club.
Moe actually returns the club to impact shallower than it was at address.
Everyone needs to look at video to "see" what is happening. I just had a lesson 2 days ago, and I have taken lesson before. We always reveiw my swing against some of the pros. Almost ALL swings I have seen have the shaft returning slightly above the orignal line it was on at address. I have only seen 2 that came back on the same line. Faldo with video taken of him at this prime was dead-nuts on the same line at impact AND post impact....simply awesome to see. The next was a suprise given that he is an unabashed fader of the ball...Litskie. Dead-nuts on the orignal line of address at impact. We summized that it might of been a bad camera angle and/or he must play the ball well forward to get that consistent fade action.
Bottem line, you are above the original line the club was on at address as you get to impact.
Bottem line, you are above the original line the club was on at address as you get to impact.
Brian, am I reading your view correctly as good players all come 'over the top' just a bit, while still staying 'inside'? Snead being one of the better examples? Or are you refering to the 'force' of the swing causing the 'hands' to be in a higher position at impact vs. address (closer to the 'sweetspot' plane, more in line with the force)? (perhaps Player and/or CHIII being closer to Moe's approach, given higher hands at address).
I prefer to look at the plane the hands travel on.
I prefer to look at the plane the hands travel on.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No ed....this is NOT what I am saying at all.
when I'm looking at video with CSwing, I stop the video at impact and draw the shaft line. Then I reverse it to the part of the downswing approximately when the shaft is vertical. Brian and other TGM instructors have said that the shaft should point at the target line. Others say that it should point parallel and above the "impact shaft plane." Which one is correct and why?
I have video and it seems that many Tour pros have it pointing at the line, and many have it parallel to the impact shaft plane.
True.
But do you, Redgoat, believe that the shaft is pointing at the target line at that point in the downswing, or is it outside the target line?
I have video of both, and already considering camera angle (plus, the camera is far enough back and they're using one their long clubs) it's obvious that they're pointing outside the target line.
But do you, Redgoat, believe that the shaft is pointing at the target line at that point in the downswing, or is it outside the target line?
I have video of both, and already considering camera angle (plus, the camera is far enough back and they're using one their long clubs) it's obvious that they're pointing outside the target line.
Redgoat
New
shin-sha,
Here is a link.
http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=2fd83c2b-1646-6b56-2bb9-437a33711a7c&size=
Most, not all, tour players are outside the target line at this height in the downswing.
Redgoat
Here is a link.
http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=2fd83c2b-1646-6b56-2bb9-437a33711a7c&size=
Most, not all, tour players are outside the target line at this height in the downswing.
Redgoat
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