Swing Plane

[dude]

quote:Originally posted by jono_007

Originally posted by wcalem

Jono,
If Evans swung the club at his normal speed and had laser at the butt of the club, and we could somehow record the path of the laser beam that fell on the ground, I can assure you that it would not follow the plane line.

Jono.

Jono, this is quite a statement from a person who does not know nor has even seen mentioned player swing, play. Let me assure you otherwise.

golfingrandy

 

[jono_007]

quote:Originally posted by dude

quote:Originally posted by jono_007

Originally posted by wcalem

Jono,
If Evans swung the club at his normal speed and had laser at the butt of the club, and we could somehow record the path of the laser beam that fell on the ground, I can assure you that it would not follow the plane line.

Jono.

Jono, this is quite a statement from a person who does not know nor has even seen mentioned player swing, play. Let me assure you otherwise.

golfingrandy

Please feel free to assure me. I am all ears. However, please back up your comments with some objective evidence. I have yet to see a pro that has the butt of the club point at the plane line during the whole downswing phase when the butt of the club is closer to the ground than the clubhead. (as per Kelley) If you can show me a real time swing, not a slow motion drill, where Kelley's model holds, I am more than happy to admit that his model holds for SOME swings. However, I can show you many pros' swings where his model does NOT hold.

As to my comments about Evans' swing, I admit using the term "assure" is too strong considering that I have not seen his swing. I should have said that I am "confident" that he doesn't do what he says in his real swings. If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please share it with us.

Cheers,

Jono.

 

[dude]

quote:I have yet to see a pro that has the butt of the club point at the plane line during the whole downswing phase when the butt of the club is closer to the ground than the clubhead. (as per Kelley) If you can show me a real time swing, not a slow motion drill, where Kelley's model holds, I am more than happy to admit that his model holds for SOME swings. However, I can show you many pros' swings where his model does NOT hold.

Some do and some do not (As you state above). Homer himself stated and admitted as much but, the do nots are off plane. Can they still play and hit the ball and play to a high level? Yes. But, compensations and a price will be paid. That is the beauty of the game (each swing is most likely never the same nor is there not some type of compensation in every stroke, though it is a lofty goal worth trying to achieve.)

quote:As to my comments about Evans' swing, I admit using the term "assure" is too strong considering that I have not seen his swing. I should have said that I am "confident" that he doesn't do what he says in his real swings.

Has zero to do with words used. To verify one is to deny the other. The above takes care the somes that do's and the some's that do not. Now it would may be quite easy for you to lists those who do and do not and the list may reveal players that do not may be better than players that do. Where this becomes flawed is that we "little" folk will not know the true athletic skills of each player.

quote:If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please share it with us.

I have a better chance of giving birth than getting permission from Chuck to post a swing. Just in case if you doubt this statement, I am male.

I will opt out of the discussion for I am quite confident and assured that Brian will pickup the gauntlet. Most here know where to find me if they desire to do so. By the way, your constant search, research and dedication to such is quite nice. Though old and feeble, I may still be around when you have 40+ years vested.

 

[theGame]

Exactly Nobody does what kelley wants. nobody!! jono proved it. u guyz are clueless.

 

[jono_007]

quote:Some do and some do not (As you state above). Homer himself stated and admitted as much but, the do nots are off plane. Can they still play and hit the ball and play to a high level? Yes. But, compensations and a price will be paid. That is the beauty of the game (each swing is most likely never the same nor is there not some type of compensation in every stroke, though it is a lofty goal worth trying to achieve.)

On this I must disagree. I did not state that some do and some do not. I said I have yet to see a pro who satisfies Kelley's model from the top of the backswing down to waist high when the club is horizontal to the ground. I said that IF you can show me a pro who DOES satisfy this model, THEN I am happy to admit that SOME pros satisfy Kelley's model. Can you show me ANY pro that satisfies Kelley's model? Remember, I want to see the butt of the club pointing at the plane line from the very start of the downswing until the club is horizontal down at waist height with the butt of the club pointing at the target.

Kelley's model plane model does not take into account the human anatomy nor the movement of the nine levers I mentioned previously. Therefore, you can not use his plane model as the gold standard and say that if you deviate from this model, you have to make compensations.

I look forward to seeing Brian's article on this topic.

Cheers,

Jono.

 

[shin-sha]

quote:Originally posted by wcalem

Jono, I have always enjoyed and learned from your posts (I read the SA forum as well as others but rarely post), and am still waiting for your</u> instructional site. I am a true novice so I may be totally off base with these observations, but I wanted to ask a few things about your "plane" model. It seems that when a line is drawn on 2 dimensional photo of 3-dimensional concept, such as swing plane, the result can be misleading. What I mean is this, if you were to attach a laser at the butt end of the shaft of your downswing model, I think that the light would be pointing on a point on the line extending from the ball to the target (or where the golfer is aiming which, I would guess, varys depending on the type of shot shape the golfer is going for) even though, in 2 dimensions, a line drawn in line with the shaft will appear to point elsewhere. The only illustration I can find of this is here:

http://chuckevansgolf.com/media/plane_drill.avi

This is a drill where Evans shows how to use a flashlight to stay on plane. If you pause the video somewhere in the downswing it appears that the club is not on the same plan as impact but the light shows that it is on plane with the target line extending from the ball in both directions.

I hope this makes sense, it is hard to describe these things without good visuals.

Am I way off base?

Thanks

wcalem,
that's a good point. it depends a lot on the camera angle.
I've seen video of Tiger where it looks like he may pointing outside the target line before the club got back to waist high, but in fact the butt is already pointing past the ball and is still pointing on the target line.

 

[EdZ]

Take a look at some of the pics in Tiger's book.. he looks pretty much dead on the line.

Keeping the right elbow pointed down is very key to getting there (elbows same distance apart, the ol' 'strap' treatment

 

[Bono]

quote:Originally posted by jono_007
On this I must disagree. I did not state that some do and some do not. I said I have yet to see a pro who satisfies Kelley's model from the top of the backswing down to waist high when the club is horizontal to the ground. I said that IF you can show me a pro who DOES satisfy this model, THEN I am happy to admit that SOME pros satisfy Kelley's model. Can you show me ANY pro that satisfies Kelley's model? Remember, I want to see the butt of the club pointing at the plane line from the very start of the downswing until the club is horizontal down at waist height with the butt of the club pointing at the target.

Off the top of my head, from what I remember (my personal items are in storage, so cant look at the pictures right now...but I seem to remember the following as being onplane - Kelleys definition)....if anyone else can confirm, that would be great.

Els, Tiger, Funk, Elkington.

Remember, the baseline extends into the horizon, and we must take into account camera angle.

quote:Originally posted by jono_007

Kelley's model plane model does not take into account the human anatomy nor the movement of the nine levers I mentioned previously. Therefore, you can not use his plane model as the gold standard and say that if you deviate from this model, you have to make compensations.

Let me preface by saying I am not a doctor, scientist, engineer, teaching pro, mathmetician, etc etc.

I have some questions.

1. Can you explain the relationship of the 9 levers to plane geometry or the geometry of the circle?

2. If we add all these levers together, as it seems we have done, what class lever does it then become???

3. Can you explain the purpose of lets say, the lever identified as the right shoulder to the lever identified as the left hand on a geometrical basis? In otherwards, is it the lever of the right shoulder, or the lever of the hands that defines and results to being on plane?

One last item...I am surprised you would assure, or be confident that Chuck doesnt swing like he says he swings..especially since you have never seen him swing, and he has at his disposal a plethora of the latest technology for dissecting and analyzing a swing - which he uses on a daily basis. I have tape of Chuck, and I am confident he is onplane, in Homers definition. So, on this topic, I would definitely disagree with you.....

Looking forward to reading your replies.

-Patrick