quote:Originally posted by shin-sha
OK,
forget about the original shaft plane for a minute.
Let's say the person is steeper than this at impact (just as you say).
But, I think the question is: 1/2 way down the downswing (when the arms are parallel to the ground or a little below that), does the club point to the plane line or is it PARALLEL to the IMPACT shaft plane? And what is the explanation?
That's what I mean, and I think that's the question that Axel (and whoever asks this type of question)is asking.
I know that many instructors use the ORIGINAL SHAFT PLANE as a reference, but they readily admit that impact is steeper than that. They use it as an easy explainable reference.If these same instructors said that the impact shaft plane was steeper, then they would also say that the shaft, 1/2 way down in the backswing, would be parallel to the impact shaft plane.
IMO, both Kelley and Haney are not entirely correct when it comes to the swing plane above waist high. I will talk about why I think this in a second, but let me say here that the most important part of the swing plane is from waist high on the downswing (where the club is horizontal) to waist high on the followthrough (again with the club horizontal). If you can be "on plane" at the bottom of the swing, it doesn't really matter what you look like at the start of the downswing. What you do during the first half of the downswing is to facilitate you to "be on plane" at the bottom of the swing arc (ie. when you release the club). As you read this post (which I fear is going to be pretty long) keep in mind that being on plane at the bottom of the swing arc (where the clubhead speed and thus the centrifugal force is the greatest) is the most important thing.
WARNING: This post is long. If you want to skip the boring bits, scroll down to the end where I have written a summary - the take-home message.
Denny made a good point about the bicycle wheel. Anyone who has experienced the sensation when trying to move a spinning bicycle wheel knows what happens when you try to change the plane of rotation (i.e. change the axis of rotation). The bicycle wheel seems to have a mind of its own. The faster it is spinning and the faster you try to shift the spinning axis, the more it will fight you. Can you say gyroscope?
This is why you need to keep the club close as possible to a single plane at the bottom of the swing arc (ie. when the clubhead speed is the greatest)
Also, when you twirl a weight at the end of the rope, and you try to move the plane of rotation, the rope will NOT stay parallel to the original plane. The faster you shft the plane, more unstable the rope will become.
IF we were to compare the golf swing to a spinning bicycle wheel or a weight at the end of the string, then ANY plane shift becomes inherently unstable. We should all be swinging like Iron Byron (i.e. on a single plane with NO plane shift). However, this is CLEARLY not the case in good players. No good player that I've seen keeps the shaft on a single plane throughout the swing. There is definitely a plane shift. Why is this?
First let me say why plane shift is ALLOWED. At the start of the downswing, things are moving slowly. The bicycle wheel is spinning slowly. Thus the resistence of plane shift is less. If things were moving faster at the top half of the downswing, then shifting planes will become much more difficult and unstable. Slow angular velocity at the start of the downswing allows plane shift to occur.
Now, left me address why the plane shift is NEEDED. The answer lies in the human anatomy. This confusion over where the butt of the club should point at the start of the downswing is the result of poor understanding of how the arms and the hands move during the golf swing. The golf swing has been compared to the two lever system, there the left arm is the upper lever and the club is the lower lever (for the right hander). In my opinion, this is a poor model that does more harm than good in teaching the golf swing. This incorrectly portrays the left arm as the governor of the swing plane. IF YOU SWING WITH TWO HANDS ON THE CLUB, YOUR TRAIL SIDE IS IN A BETTER POSITION TO CONTROL THE SWING PLANE, ESPECIALLY THROUGH THE IMPACT AREA WHERE IT MATTERS MOST.
Homer Kelley was the first person that I heard mention the importance of the trail side controlling the swing plane. He mentions the importance of the right elbow and the right forearm and gives the example of the javelin thrower who directs the plane of the throw with the right forearm. If the plane of the right forearm wobbled as the javeling thrower lets the javelin go, that thing can go anywhere.
In the pros, you can see how the right forearm and the club swing close to a common plane through the impact zone. Hoever, you can also see that you CAN NOT KEEP the right forearm and the club on the same plane throughout the downswing. This is because the right elbow, which can only hinge in one direction (ie. one degree of freedom), hinges on a different plane to the right forearm-club plane. The right forearm and the club can not even stay on a common plane from waist high on the downswing to impact. However, for learning purposes, it is OK to try to FEEL the right forearm and the club on a common plane from waist high to impact.
The camp that stresses the importance of the trail side the most is the Single Axis camp (ie. Lever Power golf, IMA, Natural Golf, etc). They advise a right hand palm grip so that the right forearm lever, right hand lever, and the club lever can work as closely as possible to a single plane through the impact area. Traditional right hand finger grip does not allow the right HAND to work on a common plane to the right forearm and the club.
Jack Kuykendall (inventor of Single Axis) goes on to compare the golf swing to a NINE lever model, consisting of:
1) left shoulder (ie. neck to left shoulder)
2) right shoulder
3) left arm
4) right arm
5) left forearm
6) right forearm
7) left hand
8) right hand
9) club
This is the most correct GEOMETRIC model that I've seen. You can see that the first 8 levers form a closed circle (or a loop) with the left hand and the right hand fixed on the club. This limits the number of ways these levers can move. The left arm movement is limited by the right hand being on the club and vice versa. Furthermore, the nature of the hinging available at the joints also limit the ways you can move these nine levers. E.g. the elbow joint has only one degree of freedom whereas the shoulder joint is a ball and socket joint with (theoretically) infinite degrees of freedom.
Hmmm ... I think this post is getting too long and probably boring, so let me quickly get to the point.
a) Golf swing is a two handed swing.
b) Left side movement is limited by the right hand being on the club, and the right side movement is limited by the left hand being on the club. Therefore, neither side can be totally dominant in the swing.
c) That being said, the TRAIL side is in a better position to control the swing plane through the impact area. You will see a lot of good players with the right forearm and the club on the same (or close to same) plane through impact.
Let me quickly expand on point c). From waist high on the downswing (ie. where the club is horizontal) to impact, there is approximately 90 degrees of rotation in the left arm. (This is combined effort of left forearm supination, left shoulder external rotation, and small amount of body pivot). However, there is only approximately 30 degrees of rotation required in the right arm. Now, NEITHER the left forearm nor the right forearm are in line with the club at impact in 3 DIMENSIONAL SPACE. Left forearm is not in line with the club if you look from down the line view, and the right forearm is not in line with the club is you look from the front view. Therefore, the side that requires less rotation has better control of the plane of clubhead movement. Try getting a screw driver and bend your wrist so that the forearm and the screw driver are NOT in line with each other. Try using the screw driver like this. You'll find it very difficult as the tip of the screw driver will wobble (because the screw driver lever and the forearm lever are out of line). The side that has less wobble through impact is in a better position to control the clubhead (ie. the trail side)
Because I believe that the trail side is the better controller and supporter of the clubhead (not the club FACE ... which is another topic) through impact, I want to feel the clubhead LAG at the start of the downswing with my trail hand (i.e. right hand). I want to feel the right wrist retaining its bend as I swing down. I want to feel the angle between the club and the right forearm as I start down, not the angle between the left forearm and the club. The way I do this is with a Swingyde. If you set it as per the instructions in the package, then you are monitoring the left forearm-club angle. I set it lower down the club (approx 1 to 2 inches below the grip) and rotated approx 60 degrees clockwise. So, if the leading edge of the club is at 12 o'clock, then I set the Swingyde at 2 o'clock. This way, the Swingyde will slot onto my right forearm at the top of the swing (and I can monitor the right forearm-club angle). I do very slow movements from the top, down to waist high and KEEP the Swingyde ON the right forearm. This is not a dynamic lag (ie. using inertia to enhance lag), but an artifical lag (ie. using muscle to keep the angle). However, it shows me the geometry required. If I look at the mirror from behind the line view, I see that the butt of the club is pointing OUTSIDE the plane line as I start down. You can see this in many pros. I suspect this is why Haney came up with the "parallel to shaft plane" model. (
http://www.golf-tips.info/forumdyna/ebene.mpg ) It LOOKS like the shaft is parallel to the shaft plane, but there is no goemetrical or physical basis for this. Lagging the club against the right forearm as you start down will naturally point the butt of the club outside the plane line that may LOOK parallel to the shaft plane at impact.
Sorry for such a long post.
Jono.
MAIN TAKE-HOME MESSAGE: Don't get too anal about where the butt of the club is pointing as you start down. Work on the swing plane from waist high on the downswing to waist high on the followthrough. You can do this with little slow mini swings. FEEL the trail forearm controlling the direction of the clubhead movement (i.e. swing plane) through the impact zone. Build your swing on that by gradually lengthing the backswing and increasing the tempo, checking that you move through the same waist high position on the way down and same waist high position on the way through.
