Swingers vs Hitters, a continuum??

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huestisc

huestisc

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I am fairly new to TGM and this forum, and I have learned a lot in a short period...what I would like is some more "real world" examples of some of the concepts. For instance, I think I have a pretty good theorhetical grasp of Swinging vs Hitting, but it's not always easy to see with the naked and untrained eye. I'd like to see people's suggestions of where different players fit in on the Hitting vs Swinging continuum. On a scale of 1 to 10, let's call 1 pure swinging and 10 pure hitting, with 5 being a "switter". I'd be interested in where you place both current and historical players. I know there are cases where certain players swing longer clubs and hit shorter ones or vice versa, or changes in style over time, so I know everything doesn't necessarily fit in perfectly to this type of analysis...nonetheless I am curious as to what your collective opinions are.
 
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6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by huestisc

I am fairly new to TGM and this forum, and I have learned a lot in a short period...what I would like is some more "real world" examples of some of the concepts. For instance, I think I have a pretty good theorhetical grasp of Swinging vs Hitting, but it's not always easy to see with the naked and untrained eye. I'd like to see people's suggestions of where different players fit in on the Hitting vs Swinging continuum. On a scale of 1 to 10, let's call 1 pure swinging and 10 pure hitting, with 5 being a "switter". I'd be interested in where you place both current and historical players. I know there are cases where certain players swing longer clubs and hit shorter ones or vice versa, or changes in style over time, so I know everything doesn't necessarily fit in perfectly to this type of analysis...nonetheless I am curious as to what your collective opinions are.
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I don’t think there would be a single line with Swingers and Hitters at each end. Each would have its own line. You either are or aren’t. A ‘switter’ would be a third line. The geometry of the swing is the same for both Swingers and Hitters- the application of force, the physics is different.
A pulling linear dragging of the club shaft waiting to reverse ends (Swing) or a pushing cross lined shaft into the ball off a shorter solid pivot (Hitting). Different power packages but identical geometric lines and planes.
Yes, Payne Stewart is a pure swinging and yes, Stadler is a pure Hitter, but... I’m pure Swinger and Lynn is a pure Hitter and we both look nothing like a counterparts.
 
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6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

<You either are or aren’t>

Does TGM say this, if so where?
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Huestisc was trying to set a straight line that morphed a golf stroke from Swing to Hit and wanted to see where Tour Players fit on this pipeline. Now while some great players have had some great strokes dug from the dirt and learned by copying others by slight, most are swingers, some Hit. But since most strokes look alike because the lines and planes are the same in either one, (preface- pg vii) the application in the delivery of the power package (see 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 for the differences in the Hit and Swing strokes) it is hard to determine, especially with longer clubs. Lynn looks very similar with either stroke.
So in the context of a single line, I feel it can’t morph - you are either pulling or pushing the shaft. Flail or muscles. Centrifugal Force or Triceps. Same plane lines, different power delivery.


See: Preface pg vii, 6-H-0-E and F, 7-19, and 10-19-0 along with 12-1-0 and 12-2-0. It is all about Push or Pull.
 
huestisc

huestisc

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Thanks 6B, you certainly have taught me something here, and it makes sense. I understand now how my presentation of the question was flawed, and in general I guess I was just more looking for examples of each type rather than a continuum. I definitely got the idea that most Tour players and nearly all LPGA players were swingers, so I was really looking for prototypes of each one...Stadler certainly fits the bill for hitting. I would guess Azinger would be in this camp as well? Trevino? And are there any that you would consider "switters"? And how do you define "switter" if it's an either/or between pushing and pulling?

As I said in my original post, I am still very new to this so please pardon any obvious mistakes I make.
 
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David Alford

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I haven't studied TGM much at all, and I'm currently in Tasmania and don't have access to it. I just wanted a YES or NO if HK said you can't combine hitting and swinging. Thanx.
 
huestisc

huestisc

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Actually, from what I remember (I don't have my book next to me), HK says something along the lines of "If you are flexible, swing...if you are strong, hit...or if you are both, then do both", which would make me think you can indeed combine them to some extent? Could someone please clarify this!
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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That's what he says.

I'm not sure where in the book it clearly says that Hitting and Swinging are seperate from each other but...

Here's some interesting threads:

http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/fo...=346&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=hitting,swinging

http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/fo...1651&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=hitting,swinging

http://chuckevansgolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302&highlight=hitting+swinging

Lots of stuff there to wade through. Should answer some things and spark new questions at the same time.

-Paul
 
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Mathew

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

I haven't studied TGM much at all, and I'm currently in Tasmania and don't have access to it. I just wanted a YES or NO if HK said you can't combine hitting and swinging. Thanx.
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You can either push or pull. Pushing is hitting - the hitter drives pp1 directly behind the shaft to simultaneously uncock and roll the left wrist. Pulling is swinging - the swinger uses pivot thrust to throwout the left arm and uses a sequenced release by transfering the wrist uncock throwing out the club to the left wrist roll - rolling along the plane line of course....

The dynamics of these procedures are incompatible from one to another - you can use a 4 barrel hitting stroke and add pivot thrust but it is still a simultaneous release and no matter whatever Brian says, anytime the clubhead isn't thrown out and you are driving - it is still hitting because it isn't a pull - you are still pushing...
 
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David Alford

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Imagine you are sitting at a table. On the table in front of you is a heavy object. You put both hands on it's end. With the left you pull while with the right you push - simultanously.

You can do that with a golf club, too.

Or sequentially. As with a left hip rotation, arms being pulled by that & then a right hand wallop at the ball.

It's not theory. I can do it, as do thousands of others, no doubt. I don't claim to know for a fact, but I'd bet quite a few PGA players use a swing model combined with a right hand "wallop". Tiger Woods, included.

In the case of TW, he has written he imagines his right arm straightening down the line post impact, which is a mental image I also use that helps time the right hand "wallop" at the last possible moment (when using this model).
 
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Mathew

Banned
Anytime you are not allowing the throwing out the clubhead and are driving it out by driving against the shaft you are then hitting - pivot thrust doesn't make any difference....it then merely becomes a 4 barrel hitting procedure....

Are you driving or throwing it out ? - it can only be one ....
 
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6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by huestisc

Actually, from what I remember (I don't have my book next to me), HK says something along the lines of "If you are flexible, swing...if you are strong, hit...or if you are both, then do both", which would make me think you can indeed combine them to some extent? Could someone please clarify this!
Click to expand...

Yes, but not both at the same time. Most pros "Swing" long irons and woods and "Hit" the scoring clubs. Hitting is more accurate a stroke but it does not mean you cannot Hit from the tee box and swing with a wedge.
 
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6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

I haven't studied TGM much at all, and I'm currently in Tasmania and don't have access to it. I just wanted a YES or NO if HK said you can't combine hitting and swinging. Thanx.
Click to expand...

Homer rarely states that something can't work. He said that he had found nothing you can't put in a swing that wouldn't do something (from a Master Class tape) but he also concluded that some things work better together than others.
If you want to push a right arm against a pulling left arm, that’s fine but is the club still in a linear path? It would be a Swing. Is the club being stress cross-lined into the ball with a pushing right arm and a pulling left arm, than its a Hit. None of the Imperatives changed just the application of power.

Switters, a term I don't care for, is just a golfer that has badly mixed Swing and Hit components that work against each other. Of the 24 components, about nine are different. It is from nine that mix-matched comes from. And just changing a few will make the whole of difference in the stroke.

And Pros are exempted from all this because they have such a natural gift that many are clueless to what they do. And that’s GREAT, but for mainstream golfers, we need to practice mechanics to produce a feel that can reproduce correct mechanics on the course when it counts.
 
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David Alford

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I'd be interested in what you mean by linear vs. "stressed crosslined". It sounds as though you think things would be so mixed up the club would be out of plane and released too early.

I'm saying you can have an inplane/late hit swing w/passive but reactionary (to "centrifugal force") arms well into the downswing and at the last instant hit with the right. It's no big deal and I don't see anything being badly mixed up.

I'm not sure most pros have such a great natural gift other than having spent a lot of time hitting golf balls. I'm not denying levels of talent, but the fact is, there is little eye-hand coordination in the golf swing.

The last thing a beginning golfer should do is to blame his talent. Knowledge and having put in signifant amounts of time practicing are the two great equalizers - unless one is a total klutz.

This is reinforced by the vast numbers of natural athletes who have terrible golf swings. If TW had spent all his time as an insurance salesman, etc. he'd be just another duffer on the range ectastic when he connects on a 250 yd drive.
 
rwh

rwh

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Dave is correct. This would be a "4 Barrell" Hitting procedure. See 10-4-D Where Mr. Kelley states that such a procedure "can make the difference in top competition."
 
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