Swingers vs Hitters, a continuum??

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Brian Manzella

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Now, let me say this....

I wouldn't recomend it...unless....

You made a Backswing to the end, pulled like heck to release point, and then right armed it.

Four-Barreled Hitting?
 
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David Alford

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<You CAN do both D-U-R-I-N-G the same swing, but NOT at the exact same time (no kidding).<

Prior to this discussion, I had thought about exactly that, and concuded it largely depends on one's exact definition of hitting and swinging. Some people like to contradistinguish pulling from hitting.

Clearly one can pull and hit (thrust) over the same interval of time, simultaneously. As per pulling and pushing an object on a table simultanously.

However, if one wants "centrifugal force" to be the key element in defining swinging, then I'll probably agree.

Even so, the benefits of one or the other power sources can be a lingering benefit. E.g. "centrifugal force" gets the club going to 105 mph and the right hand adds another 5 mph.

Lastly, we haven't excluded other power sources such as simple gravity for some models...
 
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6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

<You CAN do both D-U-R-I-N-G the same swing, but NOT at the exact same time (no kidding).<

Prior to this discussion, I had thought about exactly that, and concuded it largely depends on one's exact definition of hitting and swinging. Some people like to contradistinguish pulling from hitting.

Clearly one can pull and hit (thrust) over the same interval of time, simultaneously. As per pulling and pushing an object on a table simultanously.

However, if one wants "centrifugal force" to be the key element in defining swinging, then I'll probably agree.

Even so, the benefits of one or the other power sources can be a lingering benefit. E.g. "centrifugal force" gets the club going to 105 mph and the right hand adds another 5 mph.

Lastly, we haven't excluded other power sources such as simple gravity for some models...
Click to expand...

Trying to add 5 extra miles by pushing will slow down the centrifugal force. The push of the right arm in a True Swing motion is counterproductive. You will lose swing speed.

As Homer said -- you can add anything you want- but some won't work together as well as others.

The first move of Hitting is a slight pull to take out the "slack." So yes, there can be both in a stroke pattern but not at the same time- impact interval time, which is when you want to pull and push. I believed in the pull and push for a long time. I found that pull only works much better. Sometimes simply is best.

I agree with Lynn Blake - 4 barrel is only a Hit stroke.
 
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David Alford

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Of course, the right can add a lot more than 5 mph. I just used that as an example. E.g. a pull could add 50 mph, and the right 60 mph, etc.

I really don't know what the definition of 4 barrel is, as I'm not familiar with TGM terminology.

When a pull and a hit are used in the same stroke, I just think of it as a hybrid action.
 
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azgolfer

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Hogan talks about hitting with the left and right hands. He prefers this to using just the right hand from release through impact. He also talks of lashing the ball with the back of the left hand and connects this with supination.
 
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6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Of course, the right can add a lot more than 5 mph. I just used that as an example. E.g. a pull could add 50 mph, and the right 60 mph, etc.

I really don't know what the definition of 4 barrel is, as I'm not familiar with TGM terminology.

When a pull and a hit are used in the same stroke, I just think of it as a hybrid action.
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then you are not using CF to release the club. You can not push CF to gain clubhead speed.
 
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David Alford

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You could use CF up to the last instant and then a rt. push.

Imagine a swing or merry-go-around or a spinning bicycle wheel that you increase speed by pushing.

Something has to make CF go, why does it matter if it's a pull or push?
 
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TGMfan

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Mr. Kelley says in his Notes:

"Right Arm thrust can add considerable yardage for an out and out Swinger, provided its tendency toward Angled Hinging is recognized."

The question is, what does he mean by "recognized"? I suspect he means "overcome", so the 4 Barrel Swinger has to fight the natural tendency toward Angled Hinging and force his wrist to Hinge Horizontally. That requires more practice, maybe more talent, and is probably the reason for his admonition to MASTER a 3 Barrel Stroke before even trying it.
 
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Bigwill

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"Right Arm thrust can add considerable yardage for an out and out Swinger, provided its tendency toward Angled Hinging is recognized."

I read that differently; I always thought that he was saying that you had to ACCOUNT for the tendency toward Angled Hinging, meaning you should expect the ball to behave the same way that it would for a hitter, unless you create Horizontal Hinging through manipulation.
 
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6bee1dee

New
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

You could use CF up to the last instant and then a rt. push.

Imagine a swing or merry-go-around or a spinning bicycle wheel that you increase speed by pushing.

Something has to make CF go, why does it matter if it's a pull or push?
Click to expand...

1-I can’t imagine, in the split instant of impact interval, that anyone can time the nano second CF stops (does it?) and apply an extra push from the inert right arm.
2- I spinning wheel will slow down when pushed.
 
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6bee1dee

New
quote:Originally posted by Bigwill

"Right Arm thrust can add considerable yardage for an out and out Swinger, provided its tendency toward Angled Hinging is recognized."

I read that differently; I always thought that he was saying that you had to ACCOUNT for the tendency toward Angled Hinging, meaning you should expect the ball to behave the same way that it would for a hitter, unless you create Horizontal Hinging through manipulation.
Click to expand...

I'm with you Will.
A true (Homer’s word) Swinger using CF to release the clubhead cannot use a four barrel. A Swinger pulling the clubshaft in line and releasing Acc#2 and #3 with a push of the right arm and applying an Angle Hinge Action, could be a Four Barrel stroke. But is that Hit or Swing?
Even Bobby Clampett use Angled hinging in his Swing Stroke and I think he was trying to four barrel swing. But Bobby wasn’t even aware of what hinge action he used. Homer called it an “Adaptation.”
To me, any four barrel stroke is a Hit Stroke. Semantics? Sure, to some. I think a Swing Stroke is clearly recognized by Pull, CF release and Horizontal Hinge Action.
Remember Homer had reservations about whether a four barrel Swing Stroke was at even possible- it WAS dropped from future editions.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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I still don't really fully understand how it's possible to do this.

Can you try and explain Brian? How to do it.

What I've taken from this is that you pull from the End...with your unwinding torso or PP#4 or w/e.
...then you just push with your right hand at the last second?

Why wouldn't this be hitting with horizontal hinging?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I NEVER said it was the BEST way, but....

Pull like crazy and ADD right arm from release point.

Many will call it 4 barrel hitting, so maybe that's what it is...but...

It is an unwinable debate.
 
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Mathew

Banned
quote:Originally posted by brianman

I NEVER said it was the BEST way, but....

Pull like crazy and ADD right arm from release point.

Many will call it 4 barrel hitting, so maybe that's what it is...but...

It is an unwinable debate.
Click to expand...
Its to do with the right forearm being a virtual extension of the clubshaft like a metal bar thats been bent in the middle- it is the clubshaft - the forearm and clubshaft are one... it is the whole right flying wedge. If you are you are driving instead of letting centrifugal force throw it out by the active use of no.1 and driving the right arm then you are thursting the forearm and what is in its virtual extension .....

Mathew 10 Manzella 0

:D
 
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David Alford

New
>1-I can’t imagine, in the split instant of impact interval, that anyone can time the nano second CF stops (does it?) and apply an extra push from the inert right arm.

Do you object to pulling until the last split instant?
CF doesn't stop. CF is induced by both/either pulling and pushing.

2- I spinning wheel will slow down when pushed.
Not if you push hard & fast. You can spin a wheel by pulling or pushing, true?
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford
2- I spinning wheel will slow down when pushed.
Not if you push hard & fast. You can spin a wheel by pulling or pushing, true?
Click to expand...

It only slows down because you have to reach in and touch it when it's already moving. That wheel needs to have a little rocket attached to it. Engage thrust! HUAH!
 
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6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Brian, please define two, three and four barrel. Thanx.
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10-4-A/B/C/D

Barrels are stroke type variations. They are classified by the number of controlled accumulators active in the stroke.

Single: any ONE of the four accumulators.

Double: several variations of using TWO active accumulators.
1 &2 - 1&3- 1&4- 2&3- 2&4 or 3&4.

Triple: use of THREE active accumulators

1,2,& 3- 1,2,& 4- 1,3,& 4, or 2,3,& 4. Swingers use 2,3,& 4. Hitters need to use #1 accum somewhere either as a three or....

Four Barrel: using all four active accumulators -which makes it a Hit Stroke.

And remember Hitters dump the accumulators all at once on the ball. Swingers in a sequence.
 
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