Swingers vs Hitters, a continuum??

[David Alford]

6bee, thanx.

I'm familiar with combinations of accumulators and for example, could enumerate what I guess would be an 8 barrel model. But, being simple, I prefer to describe things in plain English.

E.g., for one type of "two barrel", I'd just say a left latisimus dorsi pull combined with a right elbow drive, etc.

I wouldn't mind summarizing terms like two or four barrel if everything was explained succinctly in neat order w/o having to refer all over the book to other obtuse explanations that in turn refer to yet other obtuse explanations in yet another part of the book.

Anyway, I wouldn't agree a hitter has to dump "power accumulators" all at once. E.g., one can employ rt. elbow drive and then (sequentially) a bent right wrist drive.

Regarding the spinning wheel, it won't slow down if the rt.hand reaches in and applies power at a gear or even the rim if the hand speed is fast enough or if the rim speed is slow.

In the case of the golf swing, the butt of the club never moves that fast, giving hands the opportunity to apply power w/o slowing things down. CF will be increased, not decreased (w/correct technique).

 

[azgolfer]

Again, from Hogan, if you are making a basketball pass motion, with the right hand rolling over the top, you use both hands. I saw a commercial for a swing aid called the impact ball the other day that seemed to be emphasizing this approach. It said something like "feel what the pros feel at impact".

 

[Mathew]

quote:
E.g., for one type of "two barrel", I'd just say a left latisimus dorsi pull combined with a right elbow drive, etc.

David - actively used out of line conditions of the "power package" - the left lat is not a part of the power package...

The power package is formed by your two arms and the shoulder - the law of the triangle....

 

[David Alford]

Mathew, I just need to get the book when I return so we can communicate. I kinda' avoided getting into it, because I wanted to figure everything out myself without being influenced.

I was just saying the lef lat is a power source.

So maybe HK doesn't equate power sources with accumulators. He has his own way of looking at the golf swing,
which is not how I would analyze or write, but it may turn out to be the case we have formed similar conclusions about
many things. I'm about done with my investigations, so it'll be interesting for me to find out lateer this fall.

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

I'd be interested in what you mean by linear vs. "stressed crosslined". It sounds as though you think things would be so mixed up the club would be out of plane and released too early.

I'm saying you can have an inplane/late hit swing w/passive but reactionary (to "centrifugal force") arms well into the downswing and at the last instant hit with the right. It's no big deal and I don't see anything being badly mixed up.

I'm not sure most pros have such a great natural gift other than having spent a lot of time hitting golf balls. I'm not denying levels of talent, but the fact is, there is little eye-hand coordination in the golf swing.

The last thing a beginning golfer should do is to blame his talent. Knowledge and having put in signifant amounts of time practicing are the two great equalizers - unless one is a total klutz.

This is reinforced by the vast numbers of natural athletes who have terrible golf swings. If TW had spent all his time as an insurance salesman, etc. he'd be just another duffer on the range ectastic when he connects on a 250 yd drive.

David, I agree that swinging and hitting can be used both in a downswing. It can be done simultaneously, sequentially or a mix. There are however some rather questionable notions being kept alive about centrifugal force by some TGM devotees.

The physics however is very simple - if a clubhead moves trough the same 3D curvilinear path and has the same velocity then, completely independent of the nature of the forces exerted by the golfer, the centrifugal force exerted by the club head will be identical.

When looking at Yoda’s swing, demonstrating swinging and hitting, nobody seems to be able to see any difference. Yoda himself admits that they look very similar but that the associated feel is very different. The centrifugal force however will be the same.

Basically the golfer exerts forces/torques onto the club shaft through the triangular assembly of shoulders and arms. Swinging is associated with the front side of the triangle, hitting with the rear side of the triangle. Certain golfers will fit somewhere in between and likely use some sequential and/or simultaneous mix.

The pro type golf swing is an incredible act of precision, re to clubface impact conditions, and if it was not for the existence of centrifugal force it would be virtually impossible to be able to time the release of the down swing to produce precise consistent impact conditions. This applies to both swinging and hitting.

mandrin

 

[birdie_man]

Brian...I have to say you've got me curious about what you say because, well- you are a G.S.E.D. and obviously know more than anyone else here. You seem to think 4BSwinging is possible but say it's an unwinnable debate- I'd like to hear you out if you have anything to say.

Can you give any examples of 4-barrel swingers? Like pros or people who do it but don't know they do it?

Question #2...if you are a 4-barrel swinger, do you swing to the end? or to the top?

Thanks.
-Paul

 

[Brian Manzella]

I don't know more than anyone else here BECAUSE I AM a GSED, I know more than anyone else here because I have tried it all....both on me and thousands of REAL students.

What DIFFERENCE does it really make?

I only got my swingers who could use the extra UMPH to do it anyway.

1% of 1%

 

[birdie_man]

Well ok, w/e the reason is that you know more than most here...you do anyway.

I dunno, what difference does it make? Not much you're saying?

I'm asking for my own curiosity now...and if you know about this I assume you must know because you were curious about it at one time or another...no?

w/e I dunno if this whole 4barrelswinging stuff is all overblown but I'm curious basically.

-Paul

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

I don't know more than anyone else here BECAUSE I AM a GSED, I know more than anyone else here because I have tried it all....both on me and thousands of REAL students.

What DIFFERENCE does it really make?

I only got my swingers who could use the extra UMPH to do it anyway.

1% of 1%

How would you classify my motion in this regard Brian?

 

[David Alford]

mandrin, good post. I agree.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

mandrin, good post. I agree.

There is a difference between pulling a club in a linear fashion and impacting the ball hard with a bent right wrist as the club "switches ends" and delivering the shaft cross line and pushing the clubhead into the ball. Lynn does know what application he uses.
The shaft is a string in Swinging and you can't push I string.
The shaft in Hitting is like an oar or a bat, you push the whole club into the ball.

If the only argument is that the right hand can hit the ball swinging then you are correct. But if you say the right hand can increase the speed of the clubhead by pushing at some magical time as it whirls than you are not correct.


If you are talking hitting and swinging outside the TGM defs then you can say anything you want.

 

[cdog]

If cf is a reaction of centripetal force, how can accelerating the shaft by pushing on it be the same?

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by cdog

If cf is a reaction of centripetal force, how can accelerating the shaft by pushing on it be the same?

Cdog,

The easiest way to understand is to use a technique often used in biomechanics, i.e., inverse dynamics. If the motion of an object is known than the associated forces/torques can be derived. Same motion results in same forces/torques. If clubhead has same motion, for either hitting or swinging, than forces/torques acting on clubhead are identical.

mandrin

 

[cdog]

Mandrin, i understand what your saying now.
I use a pw and strike the ball 120 yds, i swing and it goes 120, i hit and it goes 120, same force is applied.

 

[TGMfan]

Mandrin,

If two cars go from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, does it matter that one is front wheel drive and one is rear wheel drive? I think it would to the designers, who have to worry about such things as power trains, etc.

 

[davel]

If a very strong lead hand grip is applied so that no rolling procedure is required to square the clubface then does that mean only hittting is applied? If true that would mean couples,the old duval, daly etc. would be hitters. Is there any relationship to the grip towards hitting versus swinging. I bring this up since I hear statement like hitting the cluface faces the ball during the backswing and in swinging there is rolling action. The more I read the only consistency I get on swing versus hitting is pull with lead versus push with the trail and the alternative approach which is do both at the right time. Also in pulling isn't the model simple to say you pull with the left arm when the lower body especially the hips can be involved and in pushing I am not sure what helps. This is important for me since I can only do a upper body pivot which if this favors pulling versus pushing would make it clear the technique I should use.. If I feel like I am swinging my best the shot pattern is a push that goes 20 to 40 yards furthur which is lost since the ball is not taking the straightest direction to the hole.
In playing today I focused on the trail arm motion and noticed the slower the downstroke motion the farther and straighter the ball went. I may have translated right arm thrust as speed from the top which would probably be wrong. I may have to look up thrust in the dictionary.

Dave

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by TGMfan

Mandrin,

If two cars go from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, does it matter that one is front wheel drive and one is rear wheel drive? I think it would to the designers, who have to worry about such things as power trains, etc.

Unquestioned science is sweet
Probed it seems gobbledygook [8)]

 

[David Alford]

<There is a difference between pulling a club in a linear fashion and impacting the ball hard with a bent right wrist as the club "switches ends" and delivering the shaft cross line and pushing the clubhead into the ball.>

Are you arguing the club swithches ends and the shaft is delivered cross line? That swinging produces a flipping action at impact and the delivery is across the ball as in a swipe?

Just trying to understand your position.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

<(this is SWINGING)There is a difference between pulling a club in a linear fashion and impacting the ball hard with a bent right wrist as the club "switches ends" and (this is Hitting) delivering the shaft cross line and pushing the clubhead into the ball.>

No, you understood it wrong. I assumed that you and/or others knew the clubshaft references.

In Swinging the linear pull of the shaft, that’s pulling the grip along the plane line needs to switch ends so the clubhead can whirl through impact and finally face the target into the follow through. Of course you can flip it but that is improper- that is clubhead throw-away. Swingers are always flirting with clubhead throw-away- it’s the nature of whirling the clubhead into impact. But allowing the left wrist to only move vertical and the right wrist to only move horizontal (The Flying Wedges) and swivel after impact you prevent CHTA. Swingers use a natural Horizontal Hinge

Ben Doyle talks about switching ends when you reach the storage position right before impact.

Hitters don’t switch ends because the clubshaft cross lines into impact, like pushing a baseball bat to hit an inside pitch to the opposite field. Hitters move the hands down the plane line as the clubhead drives out to right field. A natural angled hinge. The club switches ends going into follow through.

 

[David Alford]

Thanks. I didn't have the references handy here in Tasmania.

However, swingers can move the club the same way hitters do for the reasons I gave earlier. They don't have to have passive hands.