Swinging Arms Across the Body

[Jwat]

Okay, so today I went out and worked on getting my lower body working more around. I was hitting the ball solid, but hitting some monster draws. I worked on under rotating my LAFW on the backswing and then holding it on the downswing. This helped my 50 yd draw to about a 25yd draw. But when I would tumble from my old position i hit a huge pull hook. So the under-rotating of the LAFW on the backswing is a must.

So on the 3rd bucket I took my right hand completely out of the swing. Thought left side going back and then pulling around w/ my left side. Hit is as straight as could be. Like I said before, every time I just worked on the tumble with my old swing I hit a huge draw. I think my right hand was the culprit on closing the club face. Because when I would open up the iron 45deg at address and swing normal I would hit it pretty straight, maybe a little soft draw.

So all in all a little of both was the cure. Although if I early extend I hit the big draw no matter what. We will see how it works on the course tomorrow.

Any thoughts on holding that early extension while working the lower body around?

 

[Jwat]

Whoa Nellie......

Everyone's partially correct here.

You can keep your arm on your chest through the ball—David Toms.

You can swing the left arm away from across through the ball—Payne Stewart.

"Tumble" is a funny word, and not exactly clearly defined around here.

JWAT needs to learn to swing his arms more and get his chest more forward.

Brian, do you mean more forward at impact? How do I speed the arms up and get the chest forward at impact without making my ugly left hip pop. Last lesson you were really wanting me to get on my left side. I think I finally learned how to get the lower body forward but never the upper body.

 

[Scott Fossum]

My recommendation would be to examine your grip. Hard to see but my guess would be that you are holding the club in the palm of the left hand. This reduces the amount of wrist hinge (you can see this in backswing) and makes it difficult to get the club moving upward in backswing. The club moves around your body and stays too flat in downswing. The early looking release is simply caused by not creating enough of an angle between the left arm and shaft in backswing. You should be able to get the club swinging on a more vertical angle in the backswing with a grip that holds the club more toward the fingers in the left hand. This in turn should help bring the club into impact with a better path. Finally, you might be able to hit the ball further with less effort and not have to move the head back in the downswing. Maybe this could help. Good luck!

 

[lia41985]

"Tumble" is a funny word, and not exactly clearly defined around here.

I've taken tumble to mean to input torque into the club in such a way that:

1.) the shaft angle; and
2.) shaft about itself rotation

is managed to achieve the desired face and path combination for the shot--seing as how these two variables affect VSP, HSP, angle of attack, and face angle. And by managed I mean using a certain body, arm, and hand motion towards the achievement of the desired numbers. Such motions include hand path, "flying wedge" rotation, etc. Management means spotting when someone is "underneath the sweet spot", "underplane", employing a "convex"/"convcave' hand path, utilizing a too "flat/steep eventual sweetspot" path, featuring a too "high/low" right shoulder socket (shoulder plane), etc.

 

[Jwat]

My recommendation would be to examine your grip. Hard to see but my guess would be that you are holding the club in the palm of the left hand. This reduces the amount of wrist hinge (you can see this in backswing) and makes it difficult to get the club moving upward in backswing. The club moves around your body and stays too flat in downswing. The early looking release is simply caused by not creating enough of an angle between the left arm and shaft in backswing. You should be able to get the club swinging on a more vertical angle in the backswing with a grip that holds the club more toward the fingers in the left hand. This in turn should help bring the club into impact with a better path. Finally, you might be able to hit the ball further with less effort and not have to move the head back in the downswing. Maybe this could help. Good luck!

Actually my grip is every bit in my fingers and not in the Palm. The lack of wrist hinge is from 15 years of hardcore baseball and some extreme carpal tunnel.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Which one? I just watched my Cleveland Cavaliers get their first win against the Heat since LeBron left.

Why don't you for once, ever, take the time to point out how and why I'm wrong? Seriously, be a critically-thinking, self-respecting, brave man and for once just do it.

You don't know what tumble is, how important it is, or how to teach it because YOU CAN'T DO IT:

As John Jacobs said:

John Jacobs: A Life Full Of Lessons: Golf Digest

Lia, here's the deal. I teach golf every day for a living. For the past 17 years, I've been "getting it done" on the lesson tee. I don't teach "opinion". I don't have any swing "theories". I teach proven science. And I know what great players do. But there's no substitue for experience. I've given over 2,000 lessons.

You, on the other hand, are what.......14? You don't teach. You've learned everything you know about the golf swing in the last 2 months here on this forum. You spit out words like "tumble" and "twistaway", but don't even know what they mean. And now you go out of your way to contradict anything I say because I've pointed out your ignorance. And you want me to take the time to explain why I'm right? Dude, be honest, you don't want to learn from me. Anyway, It'd be like trying to teach quantum physics to a 3 year old. Kind of hopeless.

Oh, and those videos that you posted of my swing......they were both within 1 degree of a 0* Horizontal Plane Direction. But of course, you wouldn't have any idea what that means.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian, do you mean more forward at impact? How do I speed the arms up and get the chest forward at impact without making my ugly left hip pop. Last lesson you were really wanting me to get on my left side. I think I finally learned how to get the lower body forward but never the upper body.

It just looked like your chest was too far back in the video, which would NOT WORK with an arm throw.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Lia, here's the deal. I teach golf every day for a living....

Todd, don't get all bent out of shape.

Lia is pretty knowledgeable compared to many, many teachers.

 

[spktho]

You played a lot of baseball and hopefully, for the sake of this question, was a good hitter:

How would you hit an inside change-up and keep it fair?

If the bat head got out in front, the ball would hook foul. The only way I found was to get the hands out in front and in while leaving the bat head behind.

You're going to have to find how to do this with a golf club, but I think you know the feeling with a bat, so you can do it. The feel is to get the hands out in front to a spot about a foot in front of your left foot before hitting the golf ball.

 

[lia41985]

I don't teach "opinion". I don't have any swing "theories". I teach proven science.

You know what's hilarious? The only visitor message on your wall is from...yourself. It says:

"I don't have any swing 'theories'. I teach proven science."

View Profile: Todd Dugan - Brian Manzella Golf Forum

I know what great players do. But there's no substitue for experience. I've given over 2,000 lessons.

You sound and heck, even look, like Uncle Rico:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i5_T0azEpqM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You, on the other hand, are what.......14? You don't teach. You've learned everything you know about the golf swing in the last 2 months here on this forum. You spit out words like "tumble" and "twistaway", but don't even know what they mean. And now you go out of your way to contradict anything I say because I've pointed out your ignorance. And you want me to take the time to explain why I'm right? Dude, be honest, you don't want to learn from me. Anyway, It'd be like trying to teach quantum physics to a 3 year old. Kind of hopeless.

I'm 25, I've been on this forum for about four years, and although I don't think I have much to learn from you, you just may surprise me, and regardless, I want you to explain (again, FOR ONCE) how I'm wrong.

Oh, and those videos that you posted of my swing......they were both within 1 degree of a 0* Horizontal Plane Direction. But of course, you wouldn't have any idea what that means.

Again, you have little to no tumble in your swing. What were the other numbers? With what consistency do you produce "zeroes"? Let the meltdown continue:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/obycGT3Wg-U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I'm training to be a lawyer but I'm going to play amateur psychologist and give you a diagnosis:

Dissociative identity disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a condition in which a person displays multiple distinct identities or personalities (known as alter egos or alters), each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder

You may find this a helpful read:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15864517

This is a National Institutes of Health research paper that had the following objective:

By mediating dissociative experiences, the Internet can challenge the boundaries of people's sense of identity. To illustrate this hypothesis, a case of dissociative identity disorder (DID) is presented.

 

[Jwat]

You played a lot of baseball and hopefully, for the sake of this question, was a good hitter:

How would you hit an inside change-up and keep it fair?

If the bat head got out in front, the ball would hook foul. The only way I found was to get the hands out in front and in while leaving the bat head behind.

You're going to have to find how to do this with a golf club, but I think you know the feeling with a bat, so you can do it. The feel is to get the hands out in front to a spot about a foot in front of your left foot before hitting the golf ball.

That is exactly how I hit an inside changeup. For me my hips rotating around was my very first move and the reason why I had so much power. By firing the hips first at pitch delivery, I could trigger my hands to the appropriate hand path and the right speed. But my hands were definitely in front of the bat head no matter what the pitch was.

You could think I was more in the Mark McGwire position at impact (right hand and left hand knuckles lined up with bat more in line horizontally), instead of a Derek Jeter (more chop swing, bat above hands). How can I incorporate that into a golf swing?

And I do want to be clear that I was a huge shanker before Brian. He has done more than any of the other high price instructors I have been too. I haven't shanked in over a year. Not one ball. Butch Harmon told me personally I would never be a consistent ball striker. No baseball player can.

 

[spktho]

That is exactly how I hit an inside changeup. For me my hips rotating around was my very first move and the reason why I had so much power. By firing the hips first at pitch delivery, I could trigger my hands to the appropriate hand path and the right speed. But my hands were definitely in front of the bat head no matter what the pitch was.

You could think I was more in the Mark McGwire position at impact (right hand and left hand knuckles lined up with bat more in line horizontally), instead of a Derek Jeter (more chop swing, bat above hands). How can I incorporate that into a golf swing?

There's your answer. At some point the hips feel like they stop and the hands get out in front--they have to--no matter what or where the pitch or to what field you are hitting to. Of course in golf you are essentially only hitting in one direction--preferably where you want to.

As far as the hand action goes, to prevent the clubface from closing too much, I think you are ok, but see what happens when you get your hands out in front.

To get the feel of swinging the hands in and in front while leaving the bat head behind, I was taught to swing a bat facing a fence about 2 feet away and not hit the fence with the bat. The only way to do this is to get the hands way out in front. A variation for golf could be to put a cardboard box in back behind and in line with the club path close enough to get the hands in front and not allow the clubhead to hit the box, but still be able to contact the ball.

By the way, I think Jeter's swing is close to the "tumble". Although, if you look at all great power hitters, their bat heads are lower than their hands during the swing.

 

[Jwat]

By the way, I think Jeter's swing is close to the "tumble". Although, if you look at all great power hitters, their bat heads are lower than their hands during the swing.

I agree. Jeter does have sort of a tumble action coming down. And all power hitters hands are higher than the bat which is why I think I get really underplane in my golf swing. The clubhead is well behind and below my hands.

Kevin told me I need to think High Body - Low Hands on the downswing. That alone helps me not be so underplane.

 

[spktho]

I agree. Jeter does have sort of a tumble action coming down. And all power hitters hands are higher than the bat which is why I think I get really underplane in my golf swing. The clubhead is well behind and below my hands.

Kevin told me I need to think High Body - Low Hands on the downswing. That alone helps me not be so underplane.

How about trying some carry, then just drop the hands what feels like in front of the ball...or "shake the sugar" in front of the ball? While still pivoting of course.

 

[Jwat]

How about trying some carry, then just drop the hands what feels like in front of the ball...or "shake the sugar" in front of the ball? While still pivoting of course.

Yea I tend to not be able to seperate the two. If I do the carry then I want to finish the swing by swinging my arms and hands across my body. If I think gravity drop I have to do it at the beginning of the swing. I can't start the carry and then drop the hands. My body has been ingrained with over a million baseball swings that was a correlation of just unwinding the body but never seperating hands and arms from body.

 

[spktho]

Yea I tend to not be able to seperate the two. If I do the carry then I want to finish the swing by swinging my arms and hands across my body. If I think gravity drop I have to do it at the beginning of the swing. I can't start the carry and then drop the hands. My body has been ingrained with over a million baseball swings that was a correlation of just unwinding the body but never seperating hands and arms from body.

I know where you're coming from, but as the original dirtbag, Coach Malpass would say, "don't tell me what you can't do, show me what you can do". (I'm sure he heard that from someone else).

 

[Jwat]

I know where you're coming from, but as the original dirtbag, Coach Malpass would say, "don't tell me what you can't do, show me what you can do". (I'm sure he heard that from someone else).

Ha, very true!

 

[Kevin Shields]

You played a lot of baseball and hopefully, for the sake of this question, was a good hitter:

How would you hit an inside change-up and keep it fair?

If the bat head got out in front, the ball would hook foul. The only way I found was to get the hands out in front and in while leaving the bat head behind.

You're going to have to find how to do this with a golf club, but I think you know the feeling with a bat, so you can do it. The feel is to get the hands out in front to a spot about a foot in front of your left foot before hitting the golf ball.

Awesome analogy and one ive gone to for a number of people. Its not a motion you cannot physically do.

 

[Kevin Shields]

YouTube - josh hamilton's perfect swing

 

[Kevin Shields]

Watch how his hands are already past his chin before his lead foot even fully pressures the ground.