Swinging Arms Across the Body

[footwedge]

I think those impact plane lines are just showing an effect, i want to know what causes that effect, and if that line is really determining anything in regards to the ballflight that i want, i don`t see how that line will help me achieve anything relating directly to the face and the ballflight i want. The J.Leitz video tells a better story.

 

[lia41985]

I think those impact plane lines are just showing an effect, i want to know what causes that effect, and if that line is really determining anything in regards to the ballflight that i want, i don`t see how that line will help me achieve anything relating to the face.

Agreed.

 

[lia41985]

Todd,

If you think these two are similar to each other, I have to tell you, I totally disagree. They're both "out"? "Out" to what? What part of the ball is Azinger going to need to hit the ball solid? How about Couples? One is going to hit the "outside" part of the ball, the other the "inside"? Which one is Couples? What does your answer tell you about categorizing these two as both "out'? Which one is going to hit "lower" on the ball and which one is going to be hitting "higher" on the ball? Does the height at which the ball is impacted have an effect on the trajectories that are associated with these players?

 

[Todd Dugan]

Are you guys serious? You don't see how a measurement of the horizontal direction of your swing plane through the Impact Zone is useful? Have you ever heard of TrackMan? The Swing Direction, in conjunction with Attack Angle and VSP creates the Clubhead Path at impact. That's a fairly important Impact Collision Condition. Lia, yes the shaft bends in a full power swing, so that the sweet spot is in-line with the axis of the butt-end of the shaft. A straight line...inclined...its called the Vertical Swing Plane Angle. The line I draw on the screen is the VSPA. But if the camera is positioned ON the VSPA AND looking parallel to the Target Line, then the line represents a 0* HSPA. I'm not just drawing the line anywhere. I know where to place the camera. I've compared my method with actual TrackMan measurements. I know what I'm doing. Jwat's got a HSP of about 10* there, minimum. With a resultant "true" path of about 8*. Way too much. Not possible to hit a straight shot on-target with sweet spot impact.

Those are FACTS. As I said, I only teach fact. Here are some more facts.

* Jwat exibits more Spine Axis Tilt in that video than great ball-strikers typically do with an iron.
* The vast majority of great ball-strikers do not have their head, at impact, behind where it began, using an iron.
* Increased Axis Tilt has a strong tendency to shift the Impact Plane rightward.
* Torso rotation on a Spine Axis which is less tilted will have a strong tendency to move the Impact Plane leftward. In which case, you could say that a shoulder turn which is closer to level will "tumble" the shaft over onto the intended Plane Direction nicely. There's more than one way to "tumble".
* This more level shoulder turn is the swing key that Tom Watson has recently revealed in his video and book as the "lightbulb" moment of his golfing life, which finally enabled him to eliminate what had been a tendency for an overly in-to-out Clubhead Path (rightward Plane Direction).
* Since the arms can swing independently from their ball-and-socket joints, the vertical angle of the shoulder turn plane does not force the arms and hands to swing on any particular plane direction. But it sure can have an influence. Jwat may feel free to simply swing the hands on a more leftward plane direction on the downswing, which will shift the sweet spot plane leftward, assuming that the sweetspot plane maintains the same relationship to the hand plane as present.
* For an on-line ball flight, assuming sweet spot impact, you must produce the required True Path and Clubface during impact. I have only focused on the Swing Direction/True Path component. The alignment of the clubface at impact to both the Target Line and the True Path, required for an on-line ball flight, varies with True Path. And it sure ain't the same for an 8* as it is for a 0* Path.

As always, these are not my "opinions".

 

[lia41985]

This more level shoulder turn is the swing key that Tom Watson has recently revealed in his video and book as the "lightbulb" moment of his golfing life, which finally enabled him to eliminate what had been a tendency for an overly in-to-out Clubhead Path (rightward Plane Direction).

Todd,
Thanks for your lengthy response. I appreciate your time. Let me just say, this sentence caught my attention first. That's because I recently saw Nick Price, on a Golf Channel Champion's Tour clinic show, state that his recent good play was a result of, to paraphrase him, swinging his shoulders steeper! And you know who he cited as his model for doing that? TOM WATSON! Not kidding you. Golfers, even professional golfers, operate on a "feel" level that very rarely corresponds to something "real". Tiger's talked about this a bunch and Butch was an exponent of this idea as well. By the way, I'm going to lose my habit of citing everything. I reflexively wanted to post a YouTube for the Butch and Tiger clip from when they did an Academy show with Peter Kessler and it pains me that I can't produce the Nick Price but trust me, it's all there and I've seen it. It's probably in those "books" that Steve (softconsult) is talking about...

 

[Todd Dugan]

Todd,

If you think these two are similar to each other, I have to tell you, I totally disagree. They're both "out"? "Out" to what? What part of the ball is Azinger going to need to hit the ball solid? How about Couples? One is going to hit the "outside" part of the ball, the other the "inside"? Which one is Couples? What does your answer tell you about categorizing these two as both "out'? Which one is going to hit "lower" on the ball and which one is going to be hitting "higher" on the ball? Does the height at which the ball is impacted have an effect on the trajectories that are associated with these players?

Dude, stay on topic. You said that my arms were more "out". I simply showed you 2 great players whose arms are also "out". "Out" simply means "less vertical". The rest of your post becomes hyper-maniacal. You rattle off 8 questions in a row. Stay focused, my man. Just take the point and move on. I assure that Fred Couples and Paul Azinger both could and still can hit the ball pretty solid and straight.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Todd,
Thanks for your lengthy response. I appreciate your time. Let me just say, this sentence caught my attention first. That's because I recently saw Nick Price, on a Golf Channel Champion's Tour clinic show, state that his recent good play was a result of, to paraphrase him, swinging his shoulders steeper! And you know who he cited as his model for doing that? TOM WATSON? Not kidding you. Golfers, even professional golfers operate on a "feel" level that very rarely corresponds to something "real". Tiger's talked about this a bunch and Butch was an exponent of this idea as well. By the way, I'm going to lose my habit of citing everything. I reflexively wanted to post a YouTube for the Butch and Tiger clip from when they did an Academy show with Peter Kessler and it pains me that I can't produce the Nick Price but trust me, it's all there and I've seen it. It's probably in those "books" that Steve (softconsult) is talking about...

Cool. This is why a player who comes "over the top" will likely benefit from attempting to turn the shoulders more vertically in the downswing. Most good players, however, suffer from an overly in-to-out plane direction. The term "cover" the ball circulated here recently. It is an attempt to turn the shoulders less vertically, closer to horizontal.

 

[spktho]

* Increased Axis Tilt has a strong tendency to shift the Impact Plane rightward.
* Torso rotation on a Spine Axis which is less tilted will have a strong tendency to move the Impact Plane leftward. In which case, you could say that a shoulder turn which is closer to level will "tumble" the shaft over onto the intended Plane Direction nicely. There's more than one way to "tumble".
* This more level shoulder turn is the swing key that Tom Watson has recently revealed in his video and book as the "lightbulb" moment of his golfing life, which finally enabled him to eliminate what had been a tendency for an overly in-to-out Clubhead Path (rightward Plane Direction).
* Since the arms can swing independently from their ball-and-socket joints, the vertical angle of the shoulder turn plane does not force the arms and hands to swing on any particular plane direction. But it sure can have an influence. Jwat may feel free to simply swing the hands on a more leftward plane direction on the downswing, which will shift the sweet spot plane leftward, assuming that the sweetspot plane maintains the same relationship to the hand plane as present.
* For an on-line ball flight, assuming sweet spot impact, you must produce the required True Path and Clubface during impact. I have only focused on the Swing Direction/True Path component. The alignment of the clubface at impact to both the Target Line and the True Path, required for an on-line ball flight, varies with True Path. And it sure ain't the same for an 8* as it is for a 0* Path.

As always, these are not my "opinions".

I would like to thank you for your explanations as well. I have a couple questions from the above, if you don't mind.

On axis tilt, does this also have a club face opening affect?

Brian's "carry" move would do the same as a more level shoulder turn, plus move the hands more forward into impact. Does that sound right?

 

[Jwat]

Are you guys serious? You don't see how a measurement of the horizontal direction of your swing plane through the Impact Zone is useful? Have you ever heard of TrackMan? The Swing Direction, in conjunction with Attack Angle and VSP creates the Clubhead Path at impact. That's a fairly important Impact Collision Condition. Lia, yes the shaft bends in a full power swing, so that the sweet spot is in-line with the axis of the butt-end of the shaft. A straight line...inclined...its called the Vertical Swing Plane Angle. The line I draw on the screen is the VSPA. But if the camera is positioned ON the VSPA AND looking parallel to the Target Line, then the line represents a 0* HSPA. I'm not just drawing the line anywhere. I know where to place the camera. I've compared my method with actual TrackMan measurements. I know what I'm doing. Jwat's got a HSP of about 10* there, minimum. With a resultant "true" path of about 8*. Way too much. Not possible to hit a straight shot on-target with sweet spot impact.

Those are FACTS. As I said, I only teach fact. Here are some more facts.

* Jwat exibits more Spine Axis Tilt in that video than great ball-strikers typically do with an iron.
* The vast majority of great ball-strikers do not have their head, at impact, behind where it began, using an iron.
* Increased Axis Tilt has a strong tendency to shift the Impact Plane rightward.
* Torso rotation on a Spine Axis which is less tilted will have a strong tendency to move the Impact Plane leftward. In which case, you could say that a shoulder turn which is closer to level will "tumble" the shaft over onto the intended Plane Direction nicely. There's more than one way to "tumble".
* This more level shoulder turn is the swing key that Tom Watson has recently revealed in his video and book as the "lightbulb" moment of his golfing life, which finally enabled him to eliminate what had been a tendency for an overly in-to-out Clubhead Path (rightward Plane Direction).
* Since the arms can swing independently from their ball-and-socket joints, the vertical angle of the shoulder turn plane does not force the arms and hands to swing on any particular plane direction. But it sure can have an influence. Jwat may feel free to simply swing the hands on a more leftward plane direction on the downswing, which will shift the sweet spot plane leftward, assuming that the sweetspot plane maintains the same relationship to the hand plane as present.
* For an on-line ball flight, assuming sweet spot impact, you must produce the required True Path and Clubface during impact. I have only focused on the Swing Direction/True Path component. The alignment of the clubface at impact to both the Target Line and the True Path, required for an on-line ball flight, varies with True Path. And it sure ain't the same for an 8* as it is for a 0* Path.

As always, these are not my "opinions".

So do you think I should be swinging my shoulders on the downswing more level/horizontal? Will that get my chest more forward in the downswing like Brian was suggesting? I have had around 5-6 lessons with Brian, and half of them he would get my right elbow up like Couples. I am wondering now if this was to keep my shoulders more level in the downswing. It also helped me carry the club a little more. Yesterday, I practiced it with a bucket of balls and didn't get that great of results.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I would like to thank you for your explanations as well. I have a couple questions from the above, if you don't mind.

On axis tilt, does this also have a club face opening affect?

Brian's "carry" move would do the same as a more level shoulder turn, plus move the hands more forward into impact. Does that sound right?

I beleive that the science has shown that axis tilt or "reverse tumble", if you will, indeed has an opening torque effect on the clubface. In any event, it doesn't change what the required Clubface alignment during impact must be for a given True Path. Honestly, I'm not familiar with what Brian's "carry" move is. But remember, as Brian himself has said, eevrybody swings on a plane through the Impact Zone. 14 different clubs, 14 different vertical plane angles. But it is the horizontal direction of that plane which must create the intended True Path. The thoughts/feels/tips one employs to achieve the intended Plane Direction is virtually limitless.

 

[Todd Dugan]

So do you think I should be swinging my shoulders on the downswing more level/horizontal? Will that get my chest more forward in the downswing like Brian was suggesting? I have had around 5-6 lessons with Brian, and half of them he would get my right elbow up like Couples. I am wondering now if this was to keep my shoulders more level in the downswing. It also helped me carry the club a little more. Yesterday, I practiced it with a bucket of balls and didn't get that great of results.

If your head is closer to the target and your hips are in the same place at impact, then you will have less tilt of the spine away from the target. A difficulty in your case is that you have now learned to close the clubface to your plane/arc/True Path to give the ball a chance to curve back to the target. If you simply zero-out your path with the same Clubface Differential, you're going to hit a pull hook. Long story short.....rotate hands leftward, rotate clubface rightward, rotate stance and "assumed" swing direction leftward. In practice, create ball flights which start left and curve right. Good medicine.

 

[footwedge]

Are you guys serious? You don't see how a measurement of the horizontal direction of your swing plane through the Impact Zone is useful? Have you ever heard of TrackMan? The Swing Direction, in conjunction with Attack Angle and VSP creates the Clubhead Path at impact. That's a fairly important Impact Collision Condition. Lia, yes the shaft bends in a full power swing, so that the sweet spot is in-line with the axis of the butt-end of the shaft. A straight line...inclined...its called the Vertical Swing Plane Angle. The line I draw on the screen is the VSPA. But if the camera is positioned ON the VSPA AND looking parallel to the Target Line, then the line represents a 0* HSPA. I'm not just drawing the line anywhere. I know where to place the camera. I've compared my method with actual TrackMan measurements. I know what I'm doing. Jwat's got a HSP of about 10* there, minimum. With a resultant "true" path of about 8*. Way too much. Not possible to hit a straight shot on-target with sweet spot impact.

Those are FACTS. As I said, I only teach fact. Here are some more facts.

* Jwat exibits more Spine Axis Tilt in that video than great ball-strikers typically do with an iron.
* The vast majority of great ball-strikers do not have their head, at impact, behind where it began, using an iron.
* Increased Axis Tilt has a strong tendency to shift the Impact Plane rightward.
* Torso rotation on a Spine Axis which is less tilted will have a strong tendency to move the Impact Plane leftward. In which case, you could say that a shoulder turn which is closer to level will "tumble" the shaft over onto the intended Plane Direction nicely. There's more than one way to "tumble".
* This more level shoulder turn is the swing key that Tom Watson has recently revealed in his video and book as the "lightbulb" moment of his golfing life, which finally enabled him to eliminate what had been a tendency for an overly in-to-out Clubhead Path (rightward Plane Direction).
* Since the arms can swing independently from their ball-and-socket joints, the vertical angle of the shoulder turn plane does not force the arms and hands to swing on any particular plane direction. But it sure can have an influence. Jwat may feel free to simply swing the hands on a more leftward plane direction on the downswing, which will shift the sweet spot plane leftward, assuming that the sweetspot plane maintains the same relationship to the hand plane as present.
* For an on-line ball flight, assuming sweet spot impact, you must produce the required True Path and Clubface during impact. I have only focused on the Swing Direction/True Path component. The alignment of the clubface at impact to both the Target Line and the True Path, required for an on-line ball flight, varies with True Path. And it sure ain't the same for an 8* as it is for a 0* Path.

As always, these are not my "opinions".

Let's see have i heard of Trackman Yeah, like i think i referred to it in my last post. So i guess it's a little bit more complicated than drawing a line on a pic. You seem to need to know a few other things.


I see you mentioned "Tumble" and added in the clubface factor, i believe i mentioned those also. You have noticed things like excess axis tilt and head position and shoulder angle in Jwat's swing all effects caused by what? What is causing him to be in those positions?

 

[lia41985]

Todd,
I'm a bit busy until later tonight/tomorrow but believe me I'll read over everything you've written and write back. I really appreciate you taking this much time to write such long posts. Believe me, I know it takes work and I and everyone else appreciates it. We're all here to learn and we all learn best when everyone's giving their best effort to understand and communicate. Thanks.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Let's see have i heard of Trackman Yeah, like i think i referred to it in my last post. So i guess it's a little bit more complicated than drawing a line on a pic. You seem to need to know a few other things.


I see you mentioned "Tumble" and added in the clubface factor, i believe i mentioned those also. You have noticed things like excess axis tilt and head position and shoulder angle in Jwat's swing all effects caused by what? What is causing him to be in those positions?

Determining horizontal plane direction is no more "complicated than drawing a line on a pic". If you know what you're doing. Perhaps it is you who "need to know a few other things".

Let's see if I can create the lineage of Jwat's issue for you...

The effect is a rightward True Path
The cause of that is a rightward Plane Direction
The cause of that is a righward Hand Plane
The cause of that is excessive shoulder tilt on the downswing
The cause of that is excessive lateral hip movement toward the target while the head actually moves away from the target

I don't see the point of backing the history up any farther than that, but I'm sure we could discover some traumatic childhood event that Jwat suffered which is at the root of all of this. But while you're busy backing this thing up to within 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, I'd already have the dude fixed.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Getting to the root of a problem and fixing it are two waaaaaay different things. Id pay top dollar for a front row seat to watch the fixing. Jwat is pretty a pretty smart, good athlete who has been exposed to some real good info and has struggled with this issue for awhile so I might not be so quick to brag about having him "fixed" so fast. Knowing what the problem is is certainly important and half the battle but you should know your fixes are only as good as the student's implementation of them. Certainly, you've thought you had a few slam dunks in those 17 years and 2000 lessons (only 117 a year?) only to find the student just doesnt get it?

 

[Todd Dugan]

Todd,
I'm a bit busy until later tonight/tomorrow but believe me I'll read over everything you've written and write back. I really appreciate you taking this much time to write such long posts. Believe me, I know it takes work and I and everyone else appreciates it. We're all here to learn and we all learn best when everyone's giving their best effort to understand and communicate. Thanks.

My pleasure. Thanks

 

[Todd Dugan]

Getting to the root of a problem and fixing it are two waaaaaay different things. Id pay top dollar for a front row seat to watch the fixing. Jwat is pretty a pretty smart, good athlete who has been exposed to some real good info and has struggled with this issue for awhile so I might not be so quick to brag about having him "fixed" so fast. Knowing what the problem is is certainly important and half the battle but you should know your fixes are only as good as the student's implementation of them. Certainly, you've thought you had a few slam dunks in those 17 years and 2000 lessons (only 117 a year?) only to find the student just doesnt get it?

I hear you, Kevin. My statement was more general, rather than specific to Jwat. I'm smart enough to know that if Brian can't fix someone, then perhaps nobody can.

I had a student the other day who refused to change her grip or ball position. I didn't have much to work with.

 

[spktho]

A difficulty in your case is that you have now learned to close the clubface to your plane/arc/True Path to give the ball a chance to curve back to the target. If you simply zero-out your path with the same Clubface Differential, you're going to hit a pull hook. Long story short.....rotate hands leftward, rotate clubface rightward, rotate stance and "assumed" swing direction leftward. In practice, create ball flights which start left and curve right. Good medicine.

Wait. Am I missing something? Jwat's essentially swinging way in to out. Which means for him to get the ball going to the target, his clubface needs to be open so the ball can start right and move to the left toward the target (I realize there are some other factors, but keeping it this simple helps). So, if he moves his path left, he will also have to close the face or else he will be hitting push fades if he keeps the club face how he did?

Probably the best example of carry that I have seen is Carl Petterson:

YouTube - Carl Peterson Swings Slow Motion DL & FO

At the transition he carries his hands with a forward shoulder turn before dropping them into the downswing. Some would call this an OTT move, but it is one way of getting the path left enough and in my opinion also gets the hands more forward into impact.

Obviously if Jwat were to incorporate this into his swing, he would have to fix the club face to match.

 

[Jwat]

Getting to the root of a problem and fixing it are two waaaaaay different things. Id pay top dollar for a front row seat to watch the fixing. Jwat is pretty a pretty smart, good athlete who has been exposed to some real good info and has struggled with this issue for awhile so I might not be so quick to brag about having him "fixed" so fast. Knowing what the problem is is certainly important and half the battle but you should know your fixes are only as good as the student's implementation of them. Certainly, you've thought you had a few slam dunks in those 17 years and 2000 lessons (only 117 a year?) only to find the student just doesnt get it?

Shot an 81 today, definitley not fixed. Only hit 7 fairways and 6 greens.

 

[Jwat]

Wait. Am I missing something? Jwat's essentially swinging way in to out. Which means for him to get the ball going to the target, his clubface needs to be open so the ball can start right and move to the left toward the target (I realize there are some other factors, but keeping it this simple helps). So, if he moves his path left, he will also have to close the face or else he will be hitting push fades if he keeps the club face how he did?

Probably the best example of carry that I have seen is Carl Petterson:

YouTube - Carl Peterson Swings Slow Motion DL & FO

At the transition he carries his hands with a forward shoulder turn before dropping them into the downswing. Some would call this an OTT move, but it is one way of getting the path left enough and in my opinion also gets the hands more forward into impact.

Obviously if Jwat were to incorporate this into his swing, he would have to fix the club face to match.

If I swing left right now or tumble I hit a pull draw. I definitley have a closed clubface but don't know why. My grip is good, I even get it too weak and I still have a closed clubface. I think if I can cure that then I can start swinging left more.