Are you guys serious? You don't see how a measurement of the horizontal direction of your swing plane through the Impact Zone is useful? Have you ever heard of TrackMan? The Swing Direction, in conjunction with Attack Angle and VSP creates the Clubhead Path at impact. That's a fairly important Impact Collision Condition
Todd, we all believe in Trackman. Saying that your drawn impact plane line is as good of an analytical tool as Trackman is a bit of a stretch and seems to be what you're saying here.
Lia, yes the shaft bends in a full power swing, so that the sweet spot is in-line with the axis of the butt-end of the shaft. A straight line...inclined...its called the Vertical Swing Plane Angle. The line I draw on the screen is the VSPA. But if the camera is positioned ON the VSPA AND looking parallel to the Target Line, then the line represents a 0* HSPA.
I wasn't sure how you drew the line--thanks for explaining. Why would the line represent a 0 degree horizontal swing plane line? If a player has his feet aligned left or right but the camera is "positioned on the VSPA" does the line still represent a 0 degree HSP line? Jwat's down-the-line view video has the camera positioned more towards his heel than his toes--is the camera "positioned on the VSPA"? What does it mean for camera to be "positioned on the VSPA"?
I'm not just drawing the line anywhere. I know where to place the camera. I've compared my method with actual TrackMan measurements. I know what I'm doing. Jwat's got a HSP of about 10* there, minimum. With a resultant "true" path of about 8*. Way too much. Not possible to hit a straight shot on-target with sweet spot impact.
The first two sentences are a reprieve of what I've just asked you. Your line is a line and it's got enough utility to help us see that Jwat's swing direction relative to that line is inside out. However, I wouldn't say that somehow that's an as-good as Trackman would find type finding which is what you seem to be implying.
Jwat exibits more Spine Axis Tilt in that video than great ball-strikers typically do with an iron.
He doesn't have an issue with how much spine axis tilt he has! His chest isn't forward enough!!! There are great ball-strikers that have even more spine axis tilt but they have the chest forward enough.
* The vast majority of great ball-strikers do not have their head, at impact, behind where it began, using an iron. Increased Axis Tilt has a strong tendency to shift the Impact Plane rightward. Torso rotation on a Spine Axis which is less tilted will have a strong tendency to move the Impact Plane leftward. In which case, you could say that a shoulder turn which is closer to level will "tumble" the shaft over onto the intended Plane Direction nicely. There's more than one way to "tumble".
I'm down with all three of these! Especially the point about shoulder tumble. This is something I asked Brian about back in December:
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/14519-jamie-lovemark-swing-3.html#post181200
But the question with Jwat is, if he's reverse tumbling now, would a shoulder tumble fix that? You seem to think heck yes while I'm not so sure. But moving on...
Since the arms can swing independently from their ball-and-socket joints, the vertical angle of the shoulder turn plane does not force the arms and hands to swing on any particular plane direction. But it sure can have an influence. Jwat may feel free to simply swing the hands on a more leftward plane direction on the downswing, which will shift the sweet spot plane leftward, assuming that the sweetspot plane maintains the same relationship to the hand plane as present.
So that's why you feel so strongly about the shoulder tumble issue as it relates to Jwat's swing and why I'm not so sure. See that word "assuming"?
As always, these are not my "opinions".
If you're making an assumption about the future I think most people would call that an opinion.
For an on-line ball flight, assuming sweet spot impact, you must produce the required True Path and Clubface during impact. I have only focused on the Swing Direction/True Path component. The alignment of the clubface at impact to both the Target Line and the True Path, required for an on-line ball flight, varies with True Path. And it sure ain't the same for an 8* as it is for a 0* Path.
Absolutely, but how does that mean your fix is definitely going to be the right one? Particularly when it's built on an assumption?
Dude, stay on topic. You said that my arms were more "out". I simply showed you 2 great players whose arms are also "out". "Out" simply means "less vertical". The rest of your post becomes hyper-maniacal. You rattle off 8 questions in a row. Stay focused, my man. Just take the point and move on. I assure that Fred Couples and Paul Azinger both could and still can hit the ball pretty solid and straight.
If you could go back and consider what I wrote in that post I'd appreciate it. Keep in mind their arms look more out because of where their stances are aligned (left) in relation to the camera's position.
Cool. This is why a player who comes "over the top" will likely benefit from attempting to turn the shoulders more vertically in the downswing. Most good players, however, suffer from an overly in-to-out plane direction. The term "cover" the ball circulated here recently. It is an attempt to turn the shoulders less vertically, closer to horizontal.
Yup, with you on this but not sure if this is the right fix for this golfer.
I beleive that the science has shown that axis tilt or "reverse tumble", if you will, indeed has an opening torque effect on the clubface.
Axis tilt has very little to do with reverse tumble. Reverse tumble is something the club does on the downswing--it opens and moves under. If you have the golfer inputing the proper torque into the club there's no reason why axis tilt would cause reverse tumble.
In any event, it doesn't change what the required Clubface alignment during impact must be for a given True Path...But remember, as Brian himself has said, eevrybody swings on a plane through the Impact Zone. 14 different clubs, 14 different vertical plane angles. But it is the horizontal direction of that plane which must create the intended True Path. The thoughts/feels/tips one employs to achieve the intended Plane Direction is virtually limitless.
This is good. But see that last word, "limitless." We're dealing with a complex system, a golf swing, where there are so many different inputs almost anything is possible. As such, anything said by the instructor to the student will have an effect and as such the instructor needs to be careful and humble about his recommendations and that includes you. John Jacobs said:
I'VE FOUND TRUTH in just about every book or article I've ever read on the golf swing. But there's usually one thing or another in any particular piece of writing that, when applied by the wrong person, could cause a real setback.
WE DON'T ALL react to words in the same way, and the differences in our imaginations, particularly about a thing so subjective as golf, make us more likely to grasp an idea in different ways. Put it one way, and maybe 40 in 100 will get it. Put it another way, and another 20 will get it, and so on.
John Jacobs: A Life Full Of Lessons: Golf Digest
Todd, you also wrote this:
A difficulty in your case is that you have now learned to close the clubface to your plane/arc/True Path to give the ball a chance to curve back to the target. If you simply zero-out your path with the same Clubface Differential, you're going to hit a pull hook.
And Jwat reported the following:
If I swing left right now or tumble I hit a pull draw. I definitley have a closed clubface but don't know why. My grip is good, I even get it too weak and I still have a closed clubface. I think if I can cure that then I can start swinging left more.
This was absolutely spot on but entirely predictable. So what do you recommend going forward?
Long story short.....rotate hands leftward, rotate clubface rightward, rotate stance and "assumed" swing direction leftward. In practice, create ball flights which start left and curve right. Good medicine.
You realize you're recommending him to play the exact opposite way to the way he has been playing? He's used to path right, face a little open to that path and now you want him to play with path left, face a little closed to that path. The question is why was he playing that way and that will answer what the root cause of his problems are and what needs to be fixed. So here's what you're thinking:
Let's see if I can create the lineage of Jwat's issue for you...
The effect is a rightward True Path
The cause of that is a rightward Plane Direction
The cause of that is a righward Hand Plane
The cause of that is excessive shoulder tilt on the downswing
The cause of that is excessive lateral hip movement toward the target while the head actually moves away from the target
Dude, what about the freaking face? You came on this forum to defend the Jacobs ball flight laws, you've referenced
Search for the Perfect Swing, and you always seem to be lecturing about Trackman--all of these espouse the primacy of the face to the flight of the ball. So why the obsession with path? What tells you that fixing the path will fix the face? Really I just want to echo what footwedge said here:
What about the face and the shaft? should he rotate both the torso and the hips together, does he bump first then rotate or how does that work exactly, when he does this what should his arms and hands do just lay there and do nothing expecting the rotating hips and torso to fix it all. What does he have to do with the face in your fix, anything?
If the club is reverse tumbling and losing the support of the shoulders, arms, and hands and falling under how is turning the shoulders more level going to fix all of that? Is the shoulder going to provide more support for the club now? And what about his chest not being forward enough? And what about the way he's learned to "release" the club? You make this seem really simple with your lines drawn to a degree of exactness that makes your analysis, according to you, on par with Trackman. And all I'm saying to you is, "I'm not so sure." There are a ton of assumptions and guesses built into your analysis that make it far from undisputed fact or science. Teaching is still an art even though there's science in terms of our biomechanics understanding and our understanding of ball flight (Trackman). Don't be thumping your chest thinking you have all the answers when we're dealing with a complex system, a golf swing, where uncertainty rules the day. If you want to learn more about that check out this Wikipedia article (
Complex system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) or the writings of Arthur De Vany.
Thanks again for your time and effort.
, you beat me, I shot 82 yesterday with 8 fairways but only 3 greens.
