Swinging Arms Across the Body
- Thread starter Jwat
- Start date
- Status
johnnymarlboro
New
Aw, how come I got deleted?
Scott Fossum
New
My bad, little hard to see grip in video and I noticed the restricted wrist hinge but certainly carpal tunnel would be a valid reason! In my opinion though, your swing needs to change more in the motion of the arms and hands than in what your body is doing. Especially in the backswing but glad you are seeing some success!
softconsult
New
Lia41985, consider this please. You remind me of some people in my past, and some people in my present.
The example from my past. My division hired McKinsey and Company to do a division wide analysis. The young 25 year old MBA's visited all the plants, and after about 9 months and mega hundreds of thousands of dollars in billable hours, they made their recommendations. These recommendations were totally at odds with the real world, because all they knew was from books. These folks were book smart and street stupid. We plant General Managers, all 30 of us, had them sized up from the get go, but the head shed folks forced it through. Result? Zip. Nada. No recommendations implemented.
The present. In my role as consultant and software developer (with 30 years of actual street experience) I must work with the young smart network guys. They know hardware, and a smidge of software, but they no nothing about business and have big trouble communicating. When the thing doesn't work after they leave, I get called. I asked them whether they actually tested the print function, or various other obvious things, and they say no.
Todd is reacting to you the same way I would if you were telling me how to run a plant in my industry, and you had no actual experience doing so.
I don't understand all this obsession with "The Tumble". In my one lesson with Brian after pointing out how open my clubface was at the top, we tried the tumble. I couldn't do it. He said no problem, let's just close the face a tad at address. In my lesson with Mike Jacobs, he expained the tumble as a right hand action in the downswing to prevent the face from falling open.
The example from my past. My division hired McKinsey and Company to do a division wide analysis. The young 25 year old MBA's visited all the plants, and after about 9 months and mega hundreds of thousands of dollars in billable hours, they made their recommendations. These recommendations were totally at odds with the real world, because all they knew was from books. These folks were book smart and street stupid. We plant General Managers, all 30 of us, had them sized up from the get go, but the head shed folks forced it through. Result? Zip. Nada. No recommendations implemented.
The present. In my role as consultant and software developer (with 30 years of actual street experience) I must work with the young smart network guys. They know hardware, and a smidge of software, but they no nothing about business and have big trouble communicating. When the thing doesn't work after they leave, I get called. I asked them whether they actually tested the print function, or various other obvious things, and they say no.
Todd is reacting to you the same way I would if you were telling me how to run a plant in my industry, and you had no actual experience doing so.
I don't understand all this obsession with "The Tumble". In my one lesson with Brian after pointing out how open my clubface was at the top, we tried the tumble. I couldn't do it. He said no problem, let's just close the face a tad at address. In my lesson with Mike Jacobs, he expained the tumble as a right hand action in the downswing to prevent the face from falling open.
I think this thread could have done without another installment of "Life Lessons with Softconsult". Let the two debate about it the topic at hand. Age has absolutely nothing to do with it.
On a side note, Jwat, why not just practice the carry/drop like brian shows in NHA? Don't immediately try incorporate the whole movement into a full swing. You could even practice it with no club, just a towel.
On a side note, Jwat, why not just practice the carry/drop like brian shows in NHA? Don't immediately try incorporate the whole movement into a full swing. You could even practice it with no club, just a towel.
johnnymarlboro
New
Sounds a little like what's going on in the industry in general. Why is it you older guys get so freaked out when someone younger than you challenges your opinion. Just because you've been on the planet longer doesn't make you right. It's not like truth is a "first come, first served" type of thing. I'm not saying older generations are wrong in their teachings by any means, but if you're set in your ways and completely unwilling to listen to someone younger than you based solely on their age, then I can't see you as being a very skilled teacher. If your first instinct is to dismiss them, and at the same time completely ignore their arguments while trumping up how much you know you'd better be prepared to back it up. If you've got the knowledge, prove it, don't just sit there and marvel about "these kids today" and their pacman video games and rap music and resort to childish name calling. Besides, young folks today do have a hell of an advantage over older generations. They've got amazing technology, and a little thing called the internet, bringing the best and newest info into their homes from sites such as this one. Even with the new technology there's too much damn chest beating and territorialism. The more things change, the more they stay the same I guess.
He was definitely out in front of that pitch as he got a little too extended, but could have never hit the big part of the bat if he didn't get the hands out that far.
Use your baseball swing prowess to help your golf swing not as a crutch for your golf swing. Looking at the downswing, the golf swing is probably 2/3 the baseball swing. It may be easier to get the hands out in a baseball swing--I struggle some with it too--, but you cannot tell us that you can't do it.
Do this: take an iron and set up to a ball as normal. Now put a ball six inches in front of that ball, toward the target, and a little inside. Now slowly swing and see what you have to do in order to hit the front ball without hitting the normal ball.
Jwat
New
Would you mind elaborating on the motion of the arms and hands? I totally agree with you, just don't understand how.
softconsult
New
spmurph and marlboro, you apparently missed my point. My point had nothing to do with who is right or wrong on the technical side of this. My point was strictly that I understand Todd's reaction to Lia. That's all. Sorry you don't like my examples. I like my examples, and will continue to use them. Most of the time, in my experience, age does make a difference, unless the person have lived the same year over and over, and not learned as they aged.
I think Lia's post and Todd's reply had everything to do with who is right and who is wrong, how could someone with all that experience and street smarts(yourself) miss the obvious?
Kind of ironic don't you think that you post a short story on how you understand Todd's reaction but it doesn't involve who is right or wrong. And how does this help Jwat?
Last edited:
Scott Fossum
New
What I'm thinking is your swing starts with the arms rotating too much and the chest and shoulders lag behind this initial move. Your arms and club lose the support of the body and swing "behind" and "flat".
Not sure if you can hinge the wrists any more than currently but my recommendation would be to start the swing by getting the clubhead moving up and hands stay low. (relative to the ground)Combine this with a little steeper shoulder turn and I think the club and arms would be in a position that might help you approach the ball on a better angle with the clubhead. Got a couple of pics that I need to upload that could be helpful.
Not sure if you can hinge the wrists any more than currently but my recommendation would be to start the swing by getting the clubhead moving up and hands stay low. (relative to the ground)Combine this with a little steeper shoulder turn and I think the club and arms would be in a position that might help you approach the ball on a better angle with the clubhead. Got a couple of pics that I need to upload that could be helpful.
Todd Dugan
New
Brian, you can't be serious? Lia posts 2 snapshots of my swing to point out some supposed flaw or lack of a so-called "tumble"....and both frames show the shaft to be parallel to the Target Line when the shaft is parallel to the ground. The classic "on plane" position at that stage of the swing. I've known some clueless teachers, but I think even most of them understood that most basic aspect of swing geometry. I mean, this kid actually thinks that rotating the shaft around its own axis moves the Horizontal Plane Direction.
Look, I know he's a fan of yours and working to learn your stuff. And hey, its good stuff. But he's pouncing on everything that I say, purely on spite now. I understand these topics pretty well and I think that you know that. Frankly, it would have been nice if you'd have stuck up for me also.
lia41985
New member
A better tumble would get your arms closer to this position, Todd:
See how much more high and out your left arm is?
Have you found some explanation for this phenomenon, Todd?
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/T8qsXcHtJ-Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
No. I disagree with you. On a forum. And when I do you're dismissive. If I disagree with you I'm going to say it. And if you're going to stand your ground you're going to have to explain it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jwat, check out this video:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GZOwIHeV-xw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I think that drill around the 9 minute mark will be particularly helpful especially if you can get your chest more forward with a better "run up." Get light on that left foot in the backswing and stay light on that left foot until late into the downswing.
Last edited:
Todd Dugan
New
O.K., Lia. If you want to "play nice", then I'll engage you.
First, "tumble" is about moving the shaft onto a plane with the intended horizontal direction from a plane with a different horizontal direction. If a player is able to swing the Sweet Spot on the Intended Horizontal Plane Direction through the Impact Zone, then, by definition, there is no need for increased "tumble".
There are other great ball-strikers whose Impact Plane is less vertical and whose hands go more "out" on the dowswing. Yet they can "zero out" as well as anybody.
Regarding the laser "t-generating" module... The shaft always points to the baseline (horizontal plane direction) of the plane that it is moving on. Assuming that the module eminates from the axis of the shaft, then the point where the lines intersect indicate the baseline of the plane that the shaft is moving on. If that point continues to point at a straight line on the ground, then there is no shift of the baseline. The lines themselves indicate the rotation of the shaft relative to the plane that the shaft is moving on. If you hold the shaft vertically, in your fingertips, and rotate the shaft in place, then the lines will rotate 360*. But the shaft points to the same place. Thus, no plane shift.
First, "tumble" is about moving the shaft onto a plane with the intended horizontal direction from a plane with a different horizontal direction. If a player is able to swing the Sweet Spot on the Intended Horizontal Plane Direction through the Impact Zone, then, by definition, there is no need for increased "tumble".
There are other great ball-strikers whose Impact Plane is less vertical and whose hands go more "out" on the dowswing. Yet they can "zero out" as well as anybody.
Regarding the laser "t-generating" module... The shaft always points to the baseline (horizontal plane direction) of the plane that it is moving on. Assuming that the module eminates from the axis of the shaft, then the point where the lines intersect indicate the baseline of the plane that the shaft is moving on. If that point continues to point at a straight line on the ground, then there is no shift of the baseline. The lines themselves indicate the rotation of the shaft relative to the plane that the shaft is moving on. If you hold the shaft vertically, in your fingertips, and rotate the shaft in place, then the lines will rotate 360*. But the shaft points to the same place. Thus, no plane shift.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
You guys are stuck in a place that traps many golf swing conversations....
The difference bewteen the Calc, Nicklus, Marino, Couples, Toms, Manzella type pattern (mid-back eventual plane, low right shoulder, hand path slightly inside the base line) and the Hogan, Fowler, McIllroy, Garcia, Finney type pattern (low-back eventual plane, higher right shoulder, hand path well inside the base line.
Apples and Watermelons.
The difference bewteen the Calc, Nicklus, Marino, Couples, Toms, Manzella type pattern (mid-back eventual plane, low right shoulder, hand path slightly inside the base line) and the Hogan, Fowler, McIllroy, Garcia, Finney type pattern (low-back eventual plane, higher right shoulder, hand path well inside the base line.
Apples and Watermelons.
curtisj76
New
Is there much difference to the ball? Meaning is one better for distance or accuracy or it doesn't matter?
Todd Dugan
New
Stuck? No, I'm not saying that one is better than the other. I'm simply pointing that either style can produce the intended Plane Direction, which is all that really matters. Apologies to Jwat for the "thread hijack". But this all eminated from the fact that Jwat's Plane Direction is seriously rightward.
Yeah, we can see that Jwat's swinging out to the right but what's the main cause(not other effects) and the fix in your opinion.
lia41985
New member
I think of that view as very compatible with what I said here:
See what happens when you're actually willing to engage and understand someone? You find common ground and opportunities to learn from one another. That's all I'm ever looking for when I engage you--it's not about playing nice or acting out of spite.
I wouldn't say that Azinger or Couples are zeroed out considering that Azinger plays a pull fade and Couples plays a push fade. Furthermore, I have concerns about using this concept of impact plane as you did here:There are other great ball-strikers whose Impact Plane is less vertical and whose hands go more "out" on the dowswing. Yet they can "zero out" as well as anybody.
So the impact plane is a line drawn along the shaft indicating the shaft angle when the ball is impacted. Here are my issues:
1.) Shafts bend--they're not straight poles at impact.
2.) So what if the shaft is at that angle at impact? As a diagnosing and teaching tool, what value does it have? Here's what you said:
He got to a certain impact plane for a certain reason related to the way he's combining components in his swing, how exactly is building his swing around this impact plane going to fix him? Especially if...
3.) His reverse tumbled club leaves the face open (that is to ask, how does the impact plane line account for the face?). And that condition brought him to impact on the plane he did. So what good is that impact plane as a diagnosing and teaching tool? I've seen some of your other analyses employ this impact plane idea and I'm wondering if you can, in addition to answering these questions, explain why you think this is a good diagnosing and teaching tool and if you see any weaknesses in employing this idea.
I'm with you on this.
Last edited:
- Status