Talk amongst yourselves...
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Brian Manzella
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Almost anybody can make a Never Hook Again-type swing. The soft draw pattern requires much more from the golfer.
A SDP-type golfer needs to be able to swing the arms, and rotate the handle.
The NHA-type golfer just needs to get the club UP enough to drop it on the ball with just a bit of pivot through.
Lindsey Newman
New
Gotcha, thanks
gmbtempe
New
Does the up help from getting the club under? What does the up do, I have the video but my memory is fading.
natep
New
Yes. If you use that pattern you'll never get "under".
Dear gmbtempe,
I am a 'self proclaimed golf scientist', having retired in 2002 after 47 years as a real 'rocket scientist', and believe I can help you as requested.
Search on "art posts" please, and read about "Bumpy back, keep it back", along with several posts of its explanation.
Then, follow that set-up with what I am about to describe below as the 'BACK SWING RELEASE'.
Please note that the research and PROOF of this NEW first move in the back swing still requires a documented test program in a laboratory presently scheduled for this summer at a major California University. So as I have promised Brian, this suggestion is presently in the category of IMO, not yet 'golf truth'.
I have excerpted the following from a letter I sent to a noted golf teacher for his comments and tests too, so good luck, and let us all know how "BUMPY BACK, KEEP IT BACK, and BACK SWING RELEASE" works for you.
"What I propose, and have tested both ‘on the range’, and this week analytically, has to do with how, after the ‘set-up’, the early phase of the backswing can affect the ‘transition’, downswing and of course, the results of the ball strike and flight, especially for the ‘full swing’.
Briefly, the pelvis clockwise turn during the back swing is ‘powered’ by the knees, and the external rotation of the lead hip joint, AND the internal rotation of the trail hip joint. Considering the critical ‘dynamic’ aspects of ‘pre-activation’ of muscle slings, and then the ‘stretch-shorten cycles- which follow, and produce the necessary torques AND TIMING to accelerate the pelvis, torso, shoulder girdles, arms/wrists, and finally the club there appears to be a BEST way to initiate the backswing.
As I am sure is obvious ‘on the range’ and on the course, a very energetic, high angular acceleration back swing is common for most professional golfers, and that initial high energy move, has a strong relationship to the quality of the ‘transition’ and subsequent downswing phases, but IMO, as of this time, is still inadequately measured, analyzed, and understood.
My efforts, emphasizing the ‘dynamic’ aspects and associated errors generated as a function of these early phases of the take-away, and backswing have led me to conclude that the first conscious activity after the set-up is complete, (and I hope, as I have described in the Manzella's Blogs, the Bumpy is Back, at least far enough to take up the slack), is simply to RELEASE THE KNEES AND LEAD AND TRAIL HIP JOINTS to start the back swing, then apply the active torque to complete the back swing and into transition.
In contrast, high energy /torques starting the back swing with high angular acceleration are IMO and personal testing very likely to result in significant variations/dispersions in transition and early down swing dynamic characteristics, most probably resulting in ball flight errors mostly to the left."
Frans@France
New
IMHO working on something and not having a real idea what the numbers are is..well.....something you should try to avoid
I don't see many consistant path data with inconsistant face data where the face is both inconstistantly closed AND open to the target line, except then we define inconsistant to be 1or2 degrees either way of the target line.
mgranato
New
It's sooo easy to get left with "just" going up rather than going in and up.
In line with Michael and art's postings of the research data, is there any data showing the relationship of pelvic rotation (angular?) velocity to the pelvic to shoulder angles ("x-factor") over time during the downswing?
I don't know if this has been cleared up, but here is my explanation:
As I stated before, the only way to get the upper torso(shoulders) to twist is to use the muscular force that originates or inserts on the pelvis. So, in the downsiwng, the hips are rotating ahead of the upper torso, but the torso(shoulders) cannot stay behind for the whole swing because it has the arms and club that have to be delivered to the ball.
In order to rotate the upper torso, the muscles attached to the pelvis must use the pelvis as their anchor point. If the pelvis is rotating and the upper torso needs to rotate in the same direction, but increase its rotational speed by using the pelvic anchor, then the pelvic rotation speed has to decrease--and probably in proportion to the increase in upper torso rotational speed.
The point in the downswing when the pelvic rotation slows is also dependent on when the force to increase the rotation of the upper torso is applied.
I don't know if this has been cleared up, but here is my explanation:
As I stated before, the only way to get the upper torso(shoulders) to twist is to use the muscular force that originates or inserts on the pelvis. So, in the downsiwng, the hips are rotating ahead of the upper torso, but the torso(shoulders) cannot stay behind for the whole swing because it has the arms and club that have to be delivered to the ball.
In order to rotate the upper torso, the muscles attached to the pelvis must use the pelvis as their anchor point. If the pelvis is rotating and the upper torso needs to rotate in the same direction, but increase its rotational speed by using the pelvic anchor, then the pelvic rotation speed has to decrease--and probably in proportion to the increase in upper torso rotational speed.
The point in the downswing when the pelvic rotation slows is also dependent on when the force to increase the rotation of the upper torso is applied.
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gmbtempe
New
hmm, well I suppose you could be correct but not sure about why it makes it easy, I already go "out", should I go more?
What would make it easy to go left?
dtl driver gmb - YouTube
natep
New
You need some carry in the transition IMO (if you wanna swing left). In that swing you have almost a "reverse carry" move, similar to Kenny Perry, looks almost like you're trying to hook it IMO.
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Lindsey Newman
New
Whoa! "Carry" could possibly introduce internal rotation (IR). That is a strict no no!
All in good fun for all of those phantom lurkers out there
All in good fun for all of those phantom lurkers out there
Dear spktho,
The Titleist TPI 3D system provides 17 pages of technical data, curves, limits etc. for EVERY swing.
In that array of data, for which you can down load demonstration software from the Advanced Motion Measurement (AMM 3D) site, you can SEE EVEN IN MOTION, the relationship of the parameters you have interest in.
I just read that Michael Jacobs has obtained 3DE system, but I am not sure , it may be Taylors MATT's system that has similar, but not as extensive presentation of the angular rates, accelerations etc.
My main interest here is in the 'injury potential' of the X-Factor and X-Factor stretch, especially regarding the lower back, and if all go's well in the next few months, we should have a research paper from a major Medical Clinic that addresses this area including the 'first-order' relationship to a 'dynamic crunch factor', which is believed to be a measure of the golf swing energy going thru the lower back during the downswing and follow thru.
As for your understanding of the golf swing, it looks fine to me.
Regards,
art
mgranato
New
Less deep and in would make it easier.
lia41985
New member
And even if they were doesn't Ping Man require swing to swing adjustments? You couldn't put it at one setting, run it, and have it going "through the bag" hitting ten shots with each club and have more than 8 percent of those shots fly "tour". #math
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