Target-ward Left Shoulder Moves, and Moving Centers

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You need to read Jorgensen book.

MUCH MORE to it than that.

These "so-called" scientific methods MISS Jorgensen's assertions completely.

Whiff......

Brian, I have read Jorgensen's stuff and think it's great. I've also spent some time with Cochran, who doesn't suffer fools gladly--which I found out when I tried to explain to him one of my early opinions of how I think the golf swing should be described (not in terms of the math but how, as a golf instructor, I would go about optimizing a student's swing). He only partially lit up when I adjusted my explanation to include the analogy of the hammer thrower. At least he told me I was on the right track, and I think I have a better handle on it now....some 9 years later.

Firstly, I'm a broken down old range pro, not a scientist, so even if I tend to use some scientific terminology to communicate what I'm thinking, I don't presume to use any scientific method, nor do I feel that Jorgensen's assertions are the absolute gold standard, so it's likely that I'll appear to miss them. But I think you may have missed my point also.

Jorgensen took the two-pendellum model and adjusted it such that there was a linear shift factored in at the center pivot or "hub", and by doing so, his calculated clubhead speeds and the actual clubhead speeds were in very good agreement. But, he readily concedes that, in reality, the hub is displaced along a curved line or arc, which is to say that the hub is merely displaced, in the horizontal plane and vertical plane.

This type of displacement, combined with the fact that it starts with a positive acceleration and is abruptly followed by a negative acceleration, is starting to make it sound like a kind of third pendellum. In other words, he is modeling the left shoulder joint which is moving in a curvilinear fashion toward the target, but mostly rotating.

Now, he attributes the left shoulder motion (the linear portion) to an overall shift of the golfer's body toward the target, which I have no problem with, and happen to think is a very optimized way to hit the ball, but I don't think this is the main function of weight shift, especially since all it has done is add to potential clubhead speed by %10 or so but has done nothing for precision of clubhead/clubface delivery. If we move targetward with a large portion of our mass, then our weight is shifted incidentally, but so what?

On the other hand, if our main goal in the golf swing is to create large angular momentum through a kinetic chain and the only way to do that is too control very precisely the movements of the large proximal segments, then we can only do that if we can use the friction under our feet. For example, we can only brace/stall our left leg such that the pelvis slows down and tranfers energy to the shoulders, and arms, etc, IF the left foot won't slip. In order for the foot to not slip, we must have some amount of pressure/force downward to get the static friction high enough for the purpose. How do we raise the friction? Move some weight on top of it.

Brian, what say you?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Did Ben Hogan get the memo??

Hmmm....

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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjEJgC5nYXw&feature=related[/media]

Sam Snead forgetting to demonstrate Jorgensen's lateral left shoulder move. But don't get me wrong, I like Hogan's move better (and thus Jorgensen recommendation) because he has better control of his static friction under the left foot. Clearly Snead does not have much friction, due to lack of downward force/pressure/weight, and foot slips considerably.
 
C

caedus

Guest
Hmmm....

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Brian , What is the memo? Is that a real time swing of Hogan or some pictures put together? Was the camera moving at all , or, is their any parallax involved with the lines drawn?
 
In this video, I don't believe Mr. Snead got his weight over onto his forward side (foot) very well in his follow thru. His left shoulder did not seem to move target ward as did Mr. Hogan's.

With no weight on the front foot to keep it planted, the ball, of my left foot, will spin out everytime for me.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator

I used these two photos, which took me 15 MINUTES! to line up perfectly in Photoshop, to prove a point.

Hogan was NOT AT ALL THAT "CENTERED'" on a full shot with a long club.

And his TARGETWARD MOVE, helped him hit the ball as hard as he did, and probably as good.

Where are the "white belts" on this????

As far as that Snead video, he ain't HOVERING OVER THE DAMN BALL EITHER!!

Oh, and he could play quite a bit better than Charlie Wie or Sean O'Hair.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
This is what I say.

I say Dr. Zick's model is better.

I say you get a lot by shifting your left shoulder target-ward.

I agree—and so does Phil Cheetham—that there is NO GOLF SWING WITH A "stable" CENTER.

People who teach head placement BOTHER ME. To me, if you set up correctly and pivot correctly for you, the head is a complete NON FACTOR.

:)
 
I say Dr. Zick's model is better.

I say you get a lot by shifting your left shoulder target-ward.

I agree—and so does Phil Cheetham—that there is NO GOLF SWING WITH A "stable" CENTER.

People who teach head placement BOTHER ME. To me, if you set up correctly and pivot correctly for you, the head is a complete NON FACTOR.

:)

Is Hogan pulling with the left side or pulling with the right side????
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Eye Calculations my Arse.

Nice Job photo-shopping Brian! Hey , just wondering who the "white belts" are ? Are the Morad considered " white belts" ?

I haven't seen one shred of SCIENCE that says that keeping a particular portion of the body, in this case the head, motionless, is optimal in ANY WAY in an athletic movement that has NO REAL STABLE CENTER ANYWHERE ON THE DAMN BODY.

"Instantaneous Helical Axis".....—Phil Cheetham

So, is anyone wanting to say you have to have certain amount of tilts, rotations, shifts, and stretches, just to keep this RANDOM segment still, while also prodiving multiple torques on multiple body segments to an inanimate object with a varying axis of rotation from short impliment to long one.

Among other things.

I say BULL$#!T!

And we will find out for sure at the MANZIPOSIUM/ANTI-SUMMIT.

The "White Belts" know who they are.
 
I haven't seen one shred of SCIENCE that says that keeping a particular portion of the body, in this case the head, motionless, is optimal in ANY WAY in an athletic movement that has NO REAL STABLE CENTER ANYWHERE ON THE DAMN BODY.

"Instantaneous Helical Axis".....—Phil Cheetham

So, is anyone wanting to say you have to have certain amount of tilts, rotations, shifts, and stretches, just to keep this RANDOM segment still, while also prodiving multiple torques on multiple body segments to an inanimate object with a varying axis of rotation from short impliment to long one.

Among other things.

I say BULL$#!T!

And we will find out for sure at the MANZIPOSIUM/ANTI-SUMMIT.

The "White Belts" know who they are.

yah, what he said
 
Point of order

Should point out here, given how this discussion started, that Jorgenson's "centre of rotation" - the one that shifts laterally - isn't the left shoulder as shown in the pics above. It's a theoretical point (approx halfway between the shoulders) that Jorgenson extrapolated from graphing the arc of the hands in a swing, rather than a physical landmark that he measured directly.

In those terms, Hogan's "centre of rotation" would have moved a good deal less than indicated on Brian's photos. I'm not saying it wouldn't have moved though, and in addition to the swing analysed by Jorgenson for his book, each of the professional swings graphed in Search for the Perfect Swing also showed a lateral shift. (Again, C&S didn't identify the centre of the swing with any particular bit of anatomy - and definitely NOT the head - but just graphed the motion of the hands and found a stable centre to that arc.)

In all cases, I think it's correct to say that the lateral shift took place either between backswing and downswing or very early in the downswing - Cochrane and Stubb's book showed the arc of the hands on each downswing measured as essentially circular, i.e. around a fixed centre, which implies that any shift was happening during the transition and before the hands begin to return to the ball.

(Apart from the debate about centredness, or stability, this raises an interesting point about wrist angle at impact. Almost everything I've ever seen on this measures the angle between the left arm and shaft and calls this the wrist angle at impact. And by this measure, "flipping" is when the line of the club shaft passes the line of the left arm.

However, Jorgenson states very clearly that he measures wrist angle between the shaft and a line from the grip to between the golfers' shoulders. Using this method results in a much smaller angle at the back of the shaft, or if you like, more "lag". I'm not even sure that a flip, in the sense of the shaft being forward of the line (from hands to centre) is possible. I'm not ruling it out, but it can't be common. All I'm saying is that, in Jorgenson's terms, there's nothing magic about the club passing, or not passing, the line of the left arm. So much for a flat left wrist being an imperative...)

Back to the main point - I'd like to hear what Dr Zick's model is. And when Phil Cheetham says "there is no golf swing with a stable centre" - I'm assuming that he's talking about stable from address to impact. This discussion could be taken as implying that the forward swing incorporates significant lateral movement. The scientific studies that I've seen tend to support the idea of a stable centre throughout most of the downswing. Though obviously that isn't enough to make them SnT or Foley-centered. Or, given the way he appears to be taking interviews these days, perhaps the correct term is Foley-centric.
 
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIh9NFTGw0Q[/media]

John Schlee stressed "moving level left"...

The upward motion of the left shoulder is readily seen in the slo-mo drills that BH performed.
 
C

caedus

Guest
I haven't seen one shred of SCIENCE that says that keeping a particular portion of the body, in this case the head, motionless, is optimal in ANY WAY in an athletic movement that has NO REAL STABLE CENTER ANYWHERE ON THE DAMN BODY.

"Instantaneous Helical Axis".....—Phil Cheetham

So, is anyone wanting to say you have to have certain amount of tilts, rotations, shifts, and stretches, just to keep this RANDOM segment still, while also prodiving multiple torques on multiple body segments to an inanimate object with a varying axis of rotation from short impliment to long one.

Among other things.

I say BULL$#!T!

And we will find out for sure at the MANZIPOSIUM/ANTI-SUMMIT.

The "White Belts" know who they are.

The eye calculations , not sure about this but I would say Morad is somewhat based around fovial vision and different centers , for instance the longer clubs/ or higher traj may be used with a right center. The stable head is more stack and tilt and yes the body contortions are needed to keep a completely still head , the zero head shift swing
 
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I haven't seen one shred of SCIENCE that says that keeping a particular portion of the body, in this case the head, motionless, is optimal in ANY WAY in an athletic movement that has NO REAL STABLE CENTER ANYWHERE ON THE DAMN BODY.

"Instantaneous Helical Axis".....—Phil Cheetham

And we will find out for sure at the MANZIPOSIUM/ANTI-SUMMIT.

How about the "changing of the spine angle" or standing up through impact as usually talked about from dtl? This could be a result from other poor issues in the swing, but if used correctly could it be a source of power as well?
 
When struggling with getting onto my left side, I have visualized starting the downswing by moving the back of the left shoulder toward the target. Is that what we're talking about?
 
I say Dr. Zick's model is better.

I say you get a lot by shifting your left shoulder target-ward.

I agree—and so does Phil Cheetham—that there is NO GOLF SWING WITH A "stable" CENTER.

People who teach head placement BOTHER ME. To me, if you set up correctly and pivot correctly for you, the head is a complete NON FACTOR.

:)

Brian, I'm in complete agreement with you. Instantaneous centers can be plotted in space but they are always changing--with the small caveat, as Birly points out, that the orbits/circles of shoulders/hands/clubhead become increasingly concentric as the downswing progresses.

I think it's a mistake for instructors to start rigidly assigning centers--such as the head or eyes, or even sternum--because they come in danger of trying to make the body move in a way that would be alien to other athletic movements....all others. And everything in my being tells me that this can't possibly be correct.

To compromise what could be a fluid athletic motion so that the "eyes can have a better targeting equation" when golf instructors really don't know what that means...well, I certainly can't break it down for you. There is obviously some truth to it, but it must be mega-sophisticated. And if it's so sophisticated (for example, we've all had the ball move in our backswing and still had time to reconfigure, and strike it reasonably solid) then why can't our central nervous system adapt to "some" movement just as well as if we kept our head dead still?

The body has to pivot efficiently--with some lateral movement, and a lot of rotational movement--and the head just rides on top of the whole thing, and learns to deal with it. And the head, eyes, proprioceptors, inner ear mechanisms, vistibular-occular blah, blah, etc, will deal with it just fine.
 
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