How much of the shoulder movement comes from turning versus shifting? Seems like a lot.
Target-ward Left Shoulder Moves, and Moving Centers
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How much of the shoulder movement comes from turning versus shifting? Seems like a lot.
The sweet thing about Brian is he puts himself out there... he is holding a public forum where you can test his knowledge!
As if his accessibility on the forum isn't great enough, he is standing up at a public venue, and willing to have his ideas tested by peers and scientists alike.
I hope a morad person attends the anti-summit and faces the same scrutiny that Brian is willing to undergo.
As if his accessibility on the forum isn't great enough, he is standing up at a public venue, and willing to have his ideas tested by peers and scientists alike.
I hope a morad person attends the anti-summit and faces the same scrutiny that Brian is willing to undergo.
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Kevin Shields
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Mac O'Grady Research And Development
birly-shirly
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Brian - I feel almost guilty asking quite a narrow question following that. But your comments about Nicklaus - are you saying that the head can be either (1) centered, but not steady; or (2) steady, but not centered - but not both?
On the broader points - I'd like to see this go forward. Taking just S'n'T as an example - I think there's been way too much emphasis (positive and negative) on weight distribution and shift. I haven't really seen anyone tackle the assertions S'n'T makes about how they generate power. Specifically, inward handpath = greater angular momentum, releasing the tilt of the hips = greater rotational speed, spine extension = catapulting the shaft, "recocking" or abbreviated follow-through = greater clubhead speed. I read all these statements as if they are scientifically proven - so anything that proves or disproves any of this would be a good thing in my book.
On the broader points - I'd like to see this go forward. Taking just S'n'T as an example - I think there's been way too much emphasis (positive and negative) on weight distribution and shift. I haven't really seen anyone tackle the assertions S'n'T makes about how they generate power. Specifically, inward handpath = greater angular momentum, releasing the tilt of the hips = greater rotational speed, spine extension = catapulting the shaft, "recocking" or abbreviated follow-through = greater clubhead speed. I read all these statements as if they are scientifically proven - so anything that proves or disproves any of this would be a good thing in my book.
Virtuoso
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Birly, do S&T instructors say that a more inward handpath creates more angular momentum? Maybe we should start a new thread based on what you've asked above. This thread has taken a bit of a side road from how Brian set up my original post.
birly-shirly
New
Don't want to misrepresent anyone, so this is straight from the book.
"Swinging the hands inward on the backswing is another source of power, because of a physics principle called angular momentum.[....] When the hands go back to the inside, they are inclined to take an inside path returning to the ball, thereby accessing the speed benefit of angular momentum."
Virtuoso
New
Ah, ok, gotcha. My assumption is that Bennett and Plumber are making a fairly sweeping generalization for the benefit of their intended audience. I think a serious S&T instructor would think twice about saying something like that--they'd be setting themselves up for a big dose of scrutiny.
It is an interesting phenomenon though about how "stable center, mostly rotational" type teachers tend to emphasize that their method is more optimal because of the reduction of lateral movements...almost as if they more readily use the laws of physics to their benefit...
Hmmm, I do like swings that tend to be more rotational than not, ie, huge lateral shifts seem unecessary. But, every swing eventually becomes quite rotary as the club approaches the ball.
An important question should be, in my mind, what is the proper blend of shift/turn that gives the potential to "maximize" angular momentum? I suspect the truth lies somewhere between Ballard and Bennett.
I'd love to know is this is true. Seems like "angular momentum" gets thrown around a lot but no one ever really defines it or provides supporting evidence as it pertains to a more inside hand path golf swing.
Whether a swing is upright or flat, the club is travelling on some kind of arc. I'm not saying more inside can't create more speed, I just need to see much better support than what's been offered.
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Hold the end of a club between your index and thumb. Now ask yourself, how do I make this sucker swing?
2 ways.
Move the hand holding it back and forth. (Non-central axis)
Use another hand to push it. (Central axis)
A 3rd option is to do both.... which most of us do in the golf swing.
2 ways.
Move the hand holding it back and forth. (Non-central axis)
Use another hand to push it. (Central axis)
A 3rd option is to do both.... which most of us do in the golf swing.
There may be higher RPM for a smaller radius, but the actual speed at the end of the object is no faster. Think for a second why the clubhead of a pitching wedge is SLOWER than that of a driver. The RPM's of the player is actually SLOWER while using the driver and faster with a wedge.... yet clubhead speed is faster with the driver. That alone suggests faulty logic by the writer. Angular momentum does NOT speed up the clubhead.
Sorry but Im still not getting it. Does an inside hand path create greater clubhead speed than a more upright one?
Virtuoso
New
Ringer, I agree with some of what you say, but if I made two different swings with the same club, and one type of swing generated more angular momentum, I would indeed have the potential for greater clubhead speed assuming I could distribute it to the clubhead.
I assume you would agree with this?
Virtuoso
New
All other things being equal I would have to say no.
I will ask this at the symposium. It's something I've thought about many times. Just like pulling your arms in while spinning causes you to rotate faster, when you put your arms out you spin slower. I'm pretty sure though that your hands are traveling faster or at the very least equal since the diameter of the path is longer.
birly-shirly
New
Ringer - can I ask (as politely as I can) whether you've seen that bit in bold actually verified? It's not that I'm sceptical (and I think Hogan actually said as much in Power Golf) - but if this is really true, then wouldn't that imply something pretty fundamental about how people might (or might not) be able to generate greater clubhead speed with their driver?
I wish I could find it but Brian put together a video on this very thing. The timing of the pivot with a longer club versus a shorter club. If I can find the video again I will put it up. He may have been referencing something else but that's how I interpreted it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Some answers and Some questions....
I agree with most of that.
All I know is this, after 25,000 hours of instruction, some of it better than any teacher has ever taught, I KNOW the head is NOT a component. Period.
Geez...
Look at the video, he is DIVING into his "run up."
Diving.
They need to say that.
They need to admit their failures and shortcomings.
They never do.
BULL$#!T.
B&P use a soccer-style kicker vs. a straight-on one as an example of "mechanical advantage."
Only one thing they missed—probably they never kicked a football in a real game in their lives (I have)—you kick it further yet if you run up to the ball a few yards.
I.E. "The Pull Back," "The Run Up," & "The Jump."
Sounds like you fought over-accelaration at some point, eh?
No doubt.
I can tell you, we will find out A LOT about that at the Manziposium/Anti-Summit.
The inside hand path on the backswing helps some things, but NONE of those things are "Angular Momentum."
"Virtuoso" says that it helps on the downswing to be more inward, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
I can tell you this, all of this below the line of the shoulders left arm position at the top, is NOT OPTIMUM for speed and distance.
No friggin' chance.
I agree with most of that.
All I know is this, after 25,000 hours of instruction, some of it better than any teacher has ever taught, I KNOW the head is NOT a component. Period.
Geez...
Look at the video, he is DIVING into his "run up."
Diving.
They need to say that.
They need to admit their failures and shortcomings.
They never do.
BULL$#!T.
B&P use a soccer-style kicker vs. a straight-on one as an example of "mechanical advantage."
Only one thing they missed—probably they never kicked a football in a real game in their lives (I have)—you kick it further yet if you run up to the ball a few yards.
I.E. "The Pull Back," "The Run Up," & "The Jump."
Sounds like you fought over-accelaration at some point, eh?
No doubt.
I can tell you, we will find out A LOT about that at the Manziposium/Anti-Summit.
The inside hand path on the backswing helps some things, but NONE of those things are "Angular Momentum."
"Virtuoso" says that it helps on the downswing to be more inward, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
I can tell you this, all of this below the line of the shoulders left arm position at the top, is NOT OPTIMUM for speed and distance.
No friggin' chance.
Virtuoso
New
Sounds like you fought over-accelaration at some point, eh?
If you mean getting the arms shoved out in front of the ball with too much wrist cock still loaded, then yes. Also, I've sucked the arms too far behind me in transition, lost the radius, flattened the plane too much, and had to spin the hips to steepen the plane to the ball. I've turned the shoulders too flat on the back swing, with too much sternum shift to the right, and then lifted the arms to the sky, so i could keep my butt pointed at the target on the downswing hip shift, and then radically rotate my forearms to get the face squared up. And, I've glued my arms together to get pitch elbow, but drove my hips too much toward the ball of my left foot at transition, gotten too shallow and heeled the piss out of it. And, I've gone steep backswing shoulder plane and steep arm swing, and then rocked my hips out from under me to recover the plane. And, I've tried to copy Trevino poorly, and just wiped across the thing. And, etc, etc... These are just a very small percentage of the things I've tried to improve my swing and understand the swing better generally so that I can help my students. I've essentially had to do every combination really poorly and throw them out to end up with something pretty decent.
Well, I would clarify by saying that I don't believe the hands should be held to an arbitrarily tight circle as the downswing progresses as much as I mean this: as the levers start unfolding and energy is being transmited across the system to the clubhead, the combined instantaneous center of the levers has stabilized and the outside orbit looks more like a circle and less like an elipse. In other words, this is an inevitable consequence of any swing, even poorly organized ones.
This does not mean that i think the arms should be held tight to the body through impact and past (the whole idea of "squaring the face angle with the chest rotation" type deal).
I really think, with a properly organized swing sequence, you should be able to just explode both arms outward from the combined center in a natural extension through impact. Keeping them "glued" in makes no sense in an "athletic" context.
just to clarify, B&P do say that if they would make up a pattern more built for speed it wouldn't look their current s&t model. I think Bennet mentions (I know I've seen it on youtube or infomercial) higher hands, more pullback etc. Remember they think their current model is the best for the combination of length and accuracy. I also believe the center they are really concerned with is the one between the shoulders. the head is simply a reference point, not a component.
Ok, so regarding the straight line kicker vs. from the side kicker football analogy. What is the therm for describing the increase in speed when you kick from the inside??
thanks!
Ok, so regarding the straight line kicker vs. from the side kicker football analogy. What is the therm for describing the increase in speed when you kick from the inside??
thanks!
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