The "Dariusz J." Swing Theories Thread

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Dariusz J.

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An issue that may arise from the desire for automation, is that of making the setup very detailed. It sounds like nearly evertyhing need be perfectly positioned at setup if it's going to have a chance at success. The setup in that case is far from "automatic" from both a physical standpoint and perhaps mentally as well since the player may become tentative.

From my own personal experience, I don't take care for a setup which has me running thru a checklist all the time. That would take a great deal of practice to ingrain. And to be honest, I may never feel totally comfortable. It's very difficult to actually play a real course when you're so focused on setup.

I do respect your studies, this is just a question.

Your post is one of the most intelligent ones that concerns my theories of seeling optimal conditions for automating the golf swing.
You are very correct in stating that many conscious detailed actions must be made during setup (forming grip, stance (including joints presetting), allignment), thus, it is true that this process is not that easy. However, those actions can be much easier routinized than the very motion through normal play and practice. All important conscious actions happen before starting the motion, therefore, there is a time for analyses and corrections that simply cannot be done during the very swing motion.
Besides, we all must be aware also about the power of human perception. Let's see on various historical videos how Mr.Hogan seeks optimal conditions for "cooperation" between his feet and the ground that would guarantee the most effective usage of the ground forces while he was watching at the target (and not at his feet !). When he waggles he never looks at his grip as well.
When we drive a car we never look or think about e.g. turning the steering wheel left 21 degrees while breaking from 67 to 54 kmh - our subconscious mind does it for us while our conscious mind is thinking e.g. about golf. But in order to do it safely and without any compensations, we need to grip the wheel good and to place our feet correctly on pedals. Same in golf. IMHO.

Cheers
 
Your post is one of the most intelligent ones that concerns my theories of seeling optimal conditions for automating the golf swing.
You are very correct in stating that many conscious detailed actions must be made during setup (forming grip, stance (including joints presetting), allignment), thus, it is true that this process is not that easy. However, those actions can be much easier routinized than the very motion through normal play and practice. All important conscious actions happen before starting the motion, therefore, there is a time for analyses and corrections that simply cannot be done during the very swing motion.
Besides, we all must be aware also about the power of human perception. Let's see on various historical videos how Mr.Hogan seeks optimal conditions for "cooperation" between his feet and the ground that would guarantee the most effective usage of the ground forces while he was watching at the target (and not at his feet !). When he waggles he never looks at his grip as well.
When we drive a car we never look or think about e.g. turning the steering wheel left 21 degrees while breaking from 67 to 54 kmh - our subconscious mind does it for us while our conscious mind is thinking e.g. about golf. But in order to do it safely and without any compensations, we need to grip the wheel good and to place our feet correctly on pedals. Same in golf. IMHO.

Cheers

Good response, but when using Hogan as an example let's not forget that his materials like 5 Lessons were aimed at average golfers and thus would contain a lot of emphasis on proper grip and setup. But whenever info comes out what he told his professional friends it's almost always a dynamic thought. Also, is it true that Hogan changed his eye line on the downswing? I think I heard that when he started his downswing he'd change his eye orientation to look more in to out. If true, that would certainly be a dynamic conscious thought.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Good response, but when using Hogan as an example let's not forget that his materials like 5 Lessons were aimed at average golfers and thus would contain a lot of emphasis on proper grip and setup. But whenever info comes out what he told his professional friends it's almost always a dynamic thought. Also, is it true that Hogan changed his eye line on the downswing? I think I heard that when he started his downswing he'd change his eye orientation to look more in to out. If true, that would certainly be a dynamic conscious thought.

Well...do not forget that with my studies I am trying to help weekend hackers, not Tour players :) Although even the best golfer in the world can surely appreciate introducing a portion of automatism into the motion, I am not capable to offer anything more in my league. I am a weekend hacker as well who simply have neither time nor willingness to sacrifice a lot of training hours at the range. I just want to go out every 2 weeks and play between 75 and 85 which = fulfilling Mr.Hogan's dream from '5 Lessons'. My studies are aimed exactly at making this dream possible.
As regards changing the eye line on the downswing - beats me. It's the first time I have heard about it, yet it sounds really very interesting. Could you widen this subject, please ?

Cheers
 
Well...do not forget that with my studies I am trying to help weekend hackers, not Tour players :) Although even the best golfer in the world can surely appreciate introducing a portion of automatism into the motion, I am not capable to offer anything more in my league. I am a weekend hacker as well who simply have neither time nor willingness to sacrifice a lot of training hours at the range. I just want to go out every 2 weeks and play between 75 and 85 which = fulfilling Mr.Hogan's dream from '5 Lessons'. My studies are aimed exactly at making this dream possible.
As regards changing the eye line on the downswing - beats me. It's the first time I have heard about it, yet it sounds really very interesting. Could you widen this subject, please ?

Cheers

This video was used to support the Hogan changing his eye orientation theory.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE[/media]

It always looked a bit warped to me, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

Also look at this video of slow mo swings when he older ... 5:30 and 6:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34GOeyjr0Uw&feature=related

Does seem to be some kind of eye/head adjustment going on ... whether too much is being made of it, I don't know. Be interested in your and others thoughts.

I also think the "Hogan's Secret Angle" guy was getting at something like this.

Again, not saying it's right, just saying some have theorized it.
 
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ej20

New
Good response, but when using Hogan as an example let's not forget that his materials like 5 Lessons were aimed at average golfers and thus would contain a lot of emphasis on proper grip and setup. But whenever info comes out what he told his professional friends it's almost always a dynamic thought. Also, is it true that Hogan changed his eye line on the downswing? I think I heard that when he started his downswing he'd change his eye orientation to look more in to out. If true, that would certainly be a dynamic conscious thought.

It certainly is true.In 5 Lessons,he said on the downswing he thought about tilting the "pane of glass" to the right.In other words,he felt his downswing plane to be more in to out compared to his backswing plane.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Frankly I do not believe that any changes of the inclination of the plane are consious. IMO, they rather should be an unconscius result of some mechanical phenomenon/a that happened before. Every motion, including golf swing motion, is just a sequence of events.
Tilting the pane of glass to the right may e.g. be a result of the pelvis area motion (which includes both lateral + rotary elements), especially if the lateral part preceeds the rotary one as in case of the post-secret Hogan. And that kind of "master" pelvis area motion is rather also another automatic result of other things such as e.g. sequential swinging from the ground up or diagonal stance.

Cheers

P.S. Ronnie James Dio was one of my favourite rock voices - both in Rainbow group as well as later in Black Sabbath. My uncle moved to the UK in the 70-ies; the first gift he brought me during his visit to Poland was Rainbow's "Long Live Rock'n'Roll" album. I remember the moment very well since one could not buy anything like that then in our country.
 

ej20

New
Frankly I do not believe that any changes of the inclination of the plane are consious. IMO, they rather should be an unconscius result of some mechanical phenomenon/a that happened before. Every motion, including golf swing motion, is just a sequence of events.
Tilting the pane of glass to the right may e.g. be a result of the pelvis area motion (which includes both lateral + rotary elements), especially if the lateral part preceeds the rotary one as in case of the post-secret Hogan. And that kind of "master" pelvis area motion is rather also another automatic result of other things such as e.g. sequential swinging from the ground up or diagonal stance.

Cheers

P.S. Ronnie James Dio was one of my favourite rock voices - both in Rainbow group as well as later in Black Sabbath. My uncle moved to the UK in the 70-ies; the first gift he brought me during his visit to Poland was Rainbow's "Long Live Rock'n'Roll" album. I remember the moment very well since one could not buy anything like that then in our country.

That may be so but that's what he wrote in 5 Lessons.It even included a picture of the pane of glass tilted to the right.If it was unconscious,then how would he know that he's doing it?

In my opinion,the more one uses the rotary motion of the pelvis area,the more one needs to "tilt the pane of glass" to the right to compensate for the natural OTT action that it produces.

Mind you,there are probably a million and one different ways to tilt the pane of glass to the right depending on your top of the backswing position and flexibility.
 
I don't have the book with me but I am sure that's in it.He most certainly quoted that he felt the downswing plane to be different to the backswing plane.

In the version, pp 87, I'd say you're both kind of right:

"On the downswing, a golfer swings on a slightly different plane than on the backswing. THE PLANE FOR THE DOWNSWING IS LESS STEEPLY INCLINED AND IS ORIENTED WITH THE BALL QUITE DIFFERENTLY THAN THE BACKSWING PLANE. The golfer gets on this second plane -- without thinking he is changing planes -- when he turns his hips back to the left at the start of the downswing ... Now, on the downswing, as th ebody moves to the left and the right shoulder is automatically lowered, this causes the pane of glass to be shifted into a different position. Its lateral axis is no longer in line with the line of flight. It points slightly to the left of the target. (The pane is also tilted so that the leading edge is raised off the ground.) WHEN THE GOLFER IS ON THIS CORRECT DOWNSWING PLANE, HE HAS TO HIT FROM INSIDE OUT."
 

ej20

New
In the version, pp 87, I'd say you're both kind of right:

"On the downswing, a golfer swings on a slightly different plane than on the backswing. THE PLANE FOR THE DOWNSWING IS LESS STEEPLY INCLINED AND IS ORIENTED WITH THE BALL QUITE DIFFERENTLY THAN THE BACKSWING PLANE. The golfer gets on this second plane -- without thinking he is changing planes -- when he turns his hips back to the left at the start of the downswing ... Now, on the downswing, as th ebody moves to the left and the right shoulder is automatically lowered, this causes the pane of glass to be shifted into a different position. Its lateral axis is no longer in line with the line of flight. It points slightly to the left of the target. (The pane is also tilted so that the leading edge is raised off the ground.) WHEN THE GOLFER IS ON THIS CORRECT DOWNSWING PLANE, HE HAS TO HIT FROM INSIDE OUT."

I am pretty sure Hogan is talking feel and not real.If it was Jim Furyk I would conclude he was talking real.Hogan's downswing plane is almost identical to his backswing plane which leads me to believe he was talking feel.He felt like he hit inside out or out to right field but in fact Hogan cut left after impact as well as anybody who played the game.

Hogan really rotated his hips on the downswing good and early and shifting the "pane of glass" to the right was just to compensate so he didn't come OTT.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Crab Boil.

Hogan was guessing—a lot.

No video.

No TrackMan.

Period.

The best way to learn from his swing is to look at it, and remember it.

THERE IS NO WAY TO AUTOMATE THE GOLF SWING.

Dr. Zick says the release is VARIABLE and MUST BE DONE "on purpose."

It is ALL TIMING.

Let's start to boil this thread down.

1. What is DJ's exact backswing positon of choice?

2. When will he give (or observe) a couple hundred lessons (or a few thousand) trying to EEP everyone so he has a clue about what people can do in the real world?
 
Hogan was guessing—a lot.

No video.

No TrackMan.

Period.

The best way to learn from his swing is to look at it, and remember it.

THERE IS NO WAY TO AUTOMATE THE GOLF SWING.

Dr. Zick says the release is VARIABLE and MUST BE DONE "on purpose."

It is ALL TIMING.

Let's start to boil this thread down.

1. What is DJ's exact backswing positon of choice?

2. When will he give (or observe) a couple hundred lessons (or a few thousand) trying to EEP everyone so he has a clue about what people can do in the real world?

I don't know who Dr. Zick is, but that's a great line. I just found my signature, thanks!
 
Originally Posted by Brian Manzella View Post

THERE IS NO WAY TO AUTOMATE THE GOLF SWING.

Dr. Zick says the release is VARIABLE and MUST BE DONE "on purpose."

It is ALL TIMING.

2. When will he give (or observe) a couple hundred lessons (or a few thousand) trying to EEP everyone so he has a clue about what people can do in the real world?

Well said. It is all timing, can't get around that. And I think until you've taught golf for a while, and can really play yourself. . .it's just a shot in the dark. I mean if I can't do what I'm trying to teach someone else to do, well, that's probably not going to end well.
 

ej20

New
Hogan was guessing—a lot.

No video.

No TrackMan.

Period.

The best way to learn from his swing is to look at it, and remember it.

THERE IS NO WAY TO AUTOMATE THE GOLF SWING.

Dr. Zick says the release is VARIABLE and MUST BE DONE "on purpose."

It is ALL TIMING.

Let's start to boil this thread down.

1. What is DJ's exact backswing positon of choice?

2. When will he give (or observe) a couple hundred lessons (or a few thousand) trying to EEP everyone so he has a clue about what people can do in the real world?

He had no help technology wise for sure.Also,how much of the book focused on what he felt rather than what actually happened?Just because you feel like swinging inside out doesn't always mean you actually do it.

Getting back on topic,I believe some move back towards to elbow plane is needed to play decent golf particularly if you have an upright backswing or so called "two plane" swing but good golf can be played above the elbow plane.You certainly don't have to have the club swing perpendicular to the spine to be a good player.

Also I would like to know what "automate" the golf swing means exactly?Does it mean timing is not needed?Does it mean the swing is "owned"?Does it mean the swing is swing thought free?Does it mean striking a golf ball cleanly become easy as pie and one can laugh at how easy golf is like Moe Norman?
 

Dariusz J.

New member
THERE IS NO WAY TO AUTOMATE THE GOLF SWING.

Dr. Zick says the release is VARIABLE and MUST BE DONE "on purpose."

It is ALL TIMING.

I agree that there is no way to automate the golf swing ENTIRELY. However, every possible human action can be automated to a bigger or smaller degree depending on the complexity of the action.
Automating means limiting the impact of timing - every human activity is happening in our 4-D reality; three of those 4 dimensions are spacial while the last one is conventional (time is a convention). The whole trick is to find the way to diminish the impact of it through mechanics. If we vivisect a golfer's ability to play good golf we will learn that it is only a sum of better or worse mechanics and better or worse ability to deal with timing isues (let's omit luck or mental issues here). The latter you can call a talent or a gift - i.e. a gifted golfer can achieve pretty consistent results despite his/her biomechanically flawed motion - IMO, 99.9% of golfers on Tour are like this. Golfers without such a gift struggle much more to achieve consistency - unless they can find a mechanical way to win against timing issues even a little - post-secret Hogan or Trevino are the best examples.
We used to be told that they hit thousands balls on the range and that's why they could be equally good to their more talented and we forget that e.g. both found the mechanical way to avoid hitting left no matter how hard they hit - and what is it if not a partial automatization of the swing and limiting the impact of timing issues ?

Lastly, a remark. The idea of automatization of human action was never popular because people were told from primary school times that one can't automatize living tissues - exactly what Brian repeated here; that's why people did not even try to - I really feel as a pioneer. :)
I claim that with a proper knowledge and some help from nature and theory of natural limitations EVERY POSSIBLE HUMAN ACTION CAN BE AUTOMATIZED TO A DEGREE. And it's very clear that if we assume that the gift (or lack of) remains all the time on the same level - the added automation factor WILL ALWAYS MAKE A BETTER GOLFER independently on other things.


Let's start to boil this thread down.

1. What is DJ's exact backswing positon of choice?

2. When will he give (or observe) a couple hundred lessons (or a few thousand) trying to EEP everyone so he has a clue about what people can do in the real world?

ad.1. I presume you mean top of backswing position, yes ? If yes, the biomechanically soundest one is when the entire lead arm is perpendicular to the spine and the rear humerus is parallel to the spine. The shoulder line should be perpendicular to the spine as well which means that the lead humerus is pinned to the chest and can work together the main body automatically. A sort of one plane backswing position. Upright two-planish backswings never give such a possibility since the lead shoulder joint alone is too weak (in the sense - too unsecure) a connection with the upper body to guarantee a simultaneous work.

ad.2. It's a good question and I admit that as a theorist I can meet a very important obstacle when it appears that my theories cannot be implemented into practice in 100% of the cases of heathy people. It is my biggest weakness and it would be my biggest loss - but until now noone has proved that it is impossible. Instead, I can hear only empty slogans that everyone has different DNA (?) whatever it means. The macroscale does not give a rats about different DNA - in macroscale all healthy humans are identical.
I'd risk to claim that I can bring every healthy man or woman to the EP and I can make every healthy man or woman to swing perpendicularily to the spine and I can automate everyone's action to a degree. But I will never ever go into a microscale details - this is a real instructor's job.

Cheers





Also I would like to know what "automate" the golf swing means exactly?Does it mean timing is not needed?Does it mean the swing is "owned"?Does it mean the swing is swing thought free?Does it mean striking a golf ball cleanly become easy as pie and one can laugh at how easy golf is like Moe Norman?

As said above - to automate the swing means to limit the impact of timing issues, or better said, to limit the occurence of occassions when such timing issues are crucial.
Yes, ideally it would mean that the swing is thoughtfree and based on sequential cascade of events that occur one after another because there is no other room left. That's why the theory of limitations is so powerful a tool.
Lastly, I'd not use Moe's example here - IMO, he automated his motion on the neuron level (similarily to various strange gifts of autistic people) which is beyond any possibility of going into. If I use Moe's example in my work I concentrate only on mechanical values that existed as well - or better said, that must have existed as well.

Cheers
 
Dariusz - do you disagree with the idea that, when they were hitting all those balls, Hogan and Trevino were maybe grooving their timing. And that maybe it was the repetition that allowed them to internalise and repeat their timed sequence of movement so well.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but if someone had stumbled across or discovered mechanical automisation, wouldn't you expect to see them reduce their level of practice thereafter (and save their aching joints)? As you said, your own goal is to perform to a decent standard whilst only playing infrequently.
 
ad.1. I presume you mean top of backswing position, yes ? If yes, the biomechanically soundest one is when the entire lead arm is perpendicular to the spine and the rear humerus is parallel to the spine. The shoulder line should be perpendicular to the spine as well which means that the lead humerus is pinned to the chest and can work together the main body automatically. A sort of one plane backswing position. Upright two-planish backswings never give such a possibility since the lead shoulder joint alone is too weak (in the sense - too unsecure) a connection with the upper body to guarantee a simultaneous work.

D,
One thing doesn't add up for me here. If the left humerus is raised so that it is perpendicular to the spine and the right humerus is not raised at all - stays near the side of the body - then you would naturally get different elevation levels of the clavicles - left clavicle higher than the right clavicle - and therefore the "shoulder line" wouldn't be perpendicular to the spine, unless there was some reason why the golfer would "shrug" their right shoulder more than the level of the humerus would naturally create - to get it up to the level of the left shoulder. Of course, in this context we are talking about "level", "perpendicular" to the body and not the ground.

Also, since the spine isn't straight and is changing orientation throughout the swing- it might be good to specifiy a certain portion i.e. upper spine, or C1-C6, etc.- also maybe even at a certain location in space i.e. top of backswing - so that you can more precisely define that- to make your statement more bullet proof.

Look forward to any feedback you might have - I might have missed something in the way you described it.
 
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