The Golfing Machine heads to obscurity on the book shelf

[Michael Jacobs]

Query

Mike O,

Was he only describing little nuances in definitions when and what the actual golfer in doing when producing a whole entire book on the incompatibility of Hitting and Swinging when they are 100% compatible.

Authorized Instructor Agreement always stated:

I will as an instructor fully separate the concepts of hitting and swinging

Come on dude, you don't want to start a challenge on the Golf Machine subject with myself or Bman - it will be a lost cause.. we have every sentence covered and we will always be a step ahead

 

[Michael Jacobs]

When he says “Zero deceleration is what would give maximum ball speed for any and all approach speeds." He's realizing that there is deceleration in the impact interval - and he's stating that theoretically - “Zero deceleration is what would give maximum ball speed for any and all approach speeds." and something that would be good to strive for in that direction.

Then he goes on to say "Treat “heavy feel” of club head recovery as though it were all impact, even though the ball is actually long gone” - which procedurally isn't a bad thing to feel. You've done the exact same thing as you did in the Hinge Action example - just in the opposite direction. You've taken a described feel and flipped it around as if to say Homer Kelley thinks there is No deceleration and there is No heavy hit because the clubhead doesn't actually lag into impact- mechanically speaking. Bottom line in this regard is YES a golfer can TRY to sustain lag - and a golfer can even TRY to sustain lag through impact. Doesn't mean actual lag is sustained - it means procedurally the effort to sustain lag versus the feeling of losing it - is a beneficial effort and difference of procedure. YOU NEED TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WHAT THE PLAYER IS TRYING TO DO - THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!

So what you are saying is that it is a FEEL or METHOD - the concept of a heavy hit NOT SCIENCE. I am describing Science -

 

[Daryl]

6th Edition: page 235

HINGE ACTION Example – all types of swinging doors.
Mechanical – The blade of a hinge is always vertical to its Plane of Rotation.
Golf – Holding the Flat Left Wrist vertical to one of the Three Basic Planes will impart the same motion to the Clubface.

I believe the "operative words" are "Holding the Flat Left Wrist" which is contrary to manipulating the Hands as Jacobs would have you believe.

 

[Michael Finney]

Two points:

It seems as if several concepts in the golfing machine now have their whole existence riding on the "Homer meant these as a feel" loophole.....I have to agree with Michael Jacobs on the point he made that it was all just supposed to be plain dictionary English......if that was truly the case, why is there now a need to say that he meant these core concepts to be "feels" to vindicate Homer?


And to gmbtempe, if no one really cares about the golfing machine and the literalists (except for a small golf forum crowd) then why would anyone really care about their core concepts being questioned and examined by modern scientific methods? You can't have it both ways...because in the end, no one really cares, right?

 

[ZAP]

You can put me in the "who cares" category. Not in the sense that I do not care what the truth is but I could care less what Homer meant or what the book says. What I care about is that search for the truth about what makes a golf ball go where we want it to.

All the rest is semantics from my point of view.

 

[Michael Finney]

Doesn't Lynn move hinge action back to zone 3 when he "corrects" joe's rewrite?

 

[gmbtempe]

Two points:


And to gmbtempe, if no one really cares about the golfing machine and the literalists (except for a small golf forum crowd) then why would anyone really care about their core concepts being questioned and examined by modern scientific methods? You can't have it both ways...because in the end, no one really cares, right?

Where is all this writing about people caring besides this place, can you point out some mainstream discussion in the golf world?

Its a very small sect that even pay attention to it despite its popularity on this forum.

 

[Michael Finney]

You can put me in the "who cares" category. Not in the sense that I do not care what the truth is but I could care less what Homer meant or what the book says. What I care about is that search for the truth about what makes a golf ball go where we want it to.

All the rest is semantics from my point of view.

Exactly, it really is no big deal.......like it's no big deal who's going to win the elections in November....but the elections will still be held just for the helluva it.....

Homer would definitely be laughing at the crowd hanging on to his early 1980s words.......he would have been many editions down the road and the literalists would be heading to Yale and Lafayette college in search of more.....

 

[gmbtempe]

You can put me in the "who cares" category. Not in the sense that I do not care what the truth is but I could care less what Homer meant or what the book says. What I care about is that search for the truth about what makes a golf ball go where we want it to.

All the rest is semantics from my point of view.

Thats my perspective...and since I have been labled as "book literalist" by a few here I want to welcome you to my club

 

[Michael Finney]

Where is all this writing about people caring besides this place, can you point out some mainstream discussion in the golf world?

Its a very small sect that even pay attention to it despite its popularity on this forum.

Bingo

 

[Michael Finney]

Michael Jacobs....for your own edification...here's what daryl thinks about your gm knowledge and interpretations.....

The "6th Edition" is perfect the way it is. It's for Carnivores, not Herbivores.

The problem is not the "Book". And, the problem isn't with readily available "Information" which is offered free on this website. It's with people who believe that their own understanding of the "Book" is infallible. And, for most of them, if they don't understand the information well enough to apply it, it's the "Books" fault.

Who Teaches TGM? Is this a case of "The Blind leading the Blind"?

Michael Jacobs GSED. is out to prove TGM wrong in a series of Articles for golf publications or other media. Although Michael Jacobs is a GSED, his knowledge of TGM is shit.

How many GSED's believe that "Hinge Action" is hand manipulation through the Impact Interval? Michael Jacobs does. Shit.

How many GSED's intentionally misquote the "Book" for their own self-interest? Michael Jacobs does. Shit. The Red Bold line in the quote below is the line he intentionally deleted in a "quote" he's using for a future publication. Michael Jacobs says that TGM claims that Impact Deceleration can be totally overcome.
​

Quote from the book:

This means that even with precise geometrical alignments the ball will not separate form the club at more than 80% of their approach speed. That produces, roughly, this condition – the Clubhead approaching Impact at 100 MPH has slowed to 80 MPH at separation. The ball leaves the Club at about 70 MPH (70% of the 100 MPH approach speed). To do this the ball must be traveling at 150 MPH. If the Clubhead speed at separation is 40 MPH, the ball can only travel 110 MPH under this law. Notice this – the ball acquires only 70% of the Clubhead “approach” speed (so there must be speed) 100% of the Clubhead “separation” speed (so there must be resistance to deceleration). Zero Deceleration is what would give maximum ball speed for any and all approach speeds. Speed (Centrifugal Pull) and Prestress (Acceleration) stiffen the Clubshaft for consistent (minimum to maximum) resistance to Impact Deceleration. Treat that “heavy” feel of “Clubhead recover” after Impact as though it were all Impact, even though the ball is actually long gone.​

So, Homer Kelley isn't saying that one can totally "prevent" Impact Deceleration as Michael Jacobs wants his readers to believe; Homer Kelley is saying that you can resist it. In other words, there are degrees of deceleration loss and a "Pre-Stressed" Clubshaft will resist deceleration better than an Un-Stressed one.​

I was at the Airport on Sunday and came across "Golf Illustrated" with an article about Hitting and Swinging. I skimmed the article and I was floored by the inaccuracies, misrepresentations and misinterpretations. And this was the product of a long time Ben Doyle student and short lived Tour Pro. I didn't buy the magazine. But this is the kind of information that's being "Sold" to an unsuspecting public.

I say leave the Book alone. Information may be spoon fed, but knowledge is a very arduous uphill climb.

 

[gmbtempe]

I thought this line was interesting

So, Homer Kelley isn't saying that one can totally "prevent" Impact Deceleration as Michael Jacobs wants his readers to believe; Homer Kelley is saying that you can resist it.

Does a pre-stressed shaft resist it more than a shaft that does not? Was this discussed at the Summit?

 

[Daryl]

Well, ya may as well "Spoon Feed" this "Hinge Action" Post to M Jacobs GSED as well.

The Left Arm Wedge is going to be Hinged through the Impact Interval.

The Hinge will be located at the Left Shoulder.

The Alignment of the Paddlewheel Motion of the Right Forearm Wedge will determine the Alignment of the Hinge (i.e. Angled, Horizontal).

If the Right Forearm/Hand Paddlewheels about an axis that's perpendicular to the Horizontal Plane, then the Hinge Pin will be Perpendicular to the Horizontal Plane. Horizontal Hinging.

If the Right Forearm/Hand Paddlewheels about an axis that's perpendicular to the Angled Plane, then the Hinge Pin will be Perpendicular to the Angled Plane. Angled Hinging.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have TWO CHOICES: Hinge Through Impact or Swivel Through Impact.

If you Force the Left Wrist to Roll Through the Impact Interval, by Rolling it with the Left Arm or Wrist or Forearm Muscles, then the Right Hand will also Roll. That is Swiveling. Both Hands are rotating Counterclockwise. You are Rolling the Center of Gravity of the Clubhead and Clubface Alignment will be erratic. The Clubface will Close and Hood.

When you use the Paddlewheel Action of the Right Forearm and Hand to Roll the Left Wrist Through the Impact Interval, you are Hinging. The Left Hand Rotates Counterclockwise but the Right Hand does not. You are Rotating the Clubface in Alignment of the Hinge. The Clubface will Close Only.


One last point if I may:

When Pressure is applied to the #3 Pressure Point, then the Right Forearm will perform the Rotational Requirements of the pre-selected Hinge Action. Without #3 Pressure Point Pressure, the Right Forearm Flying Wedge cannot exert its influence on the Left Arm Wedge. But, although the Rotational Motion may exist and the Left Arm will be influenced by that motion, it won't have the "Hard Snap Roll" of Horizontal Hinging through and after impact. Its a softer sort of Roll and it will be influenced by Impact Deceleration.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Not so fast...

So Daryl.....

From the 6th Edition of The Golfing Machine by Homer Kelley:

PAGE IX: "The principles set forth in this book will greatly benefit many other
activities where manual dexterity is required. It will be realized that con-
scious hand manipulation is indispensable in the learning process."

6-G-0. HAND MOTION ...So-learn
to hit the ball with Hand manipulation rather than with Clubhead
manipulation and your game is less likely to keep falling apart.

7-2. GRlP TYPES ...Unless, of course, there is Hand manipulation-intentional
or unintentional...

7-10. HINGE ACTIONS "Hinge Actions" describe and control the manipulation of the Hands through the Impact Interval. This Hand manipulation in turn controls the Clubface alignment.


Before you go any further, and say more mean things about nice people, explain the above.

Where do you think he got the term "Hand Manipulation" from, The Physics of Golf???

 

[Daryl]

PAGE IX: "The principles set forth in this book will greatly benefit many other
activities where manual dexterity is required. It will be realized that con-
scious hand manipulation is indispensable in the learning process."

During the Learning Process.

6-G-0. HAND MOTION ...So-learn
to hit the ball with Hand manipulation rather than with Clubhead
manipulation and your game is less likely to keep falling apart.

Learn how to indirectly Manipulate the Hands and not directly. (Dead Hands - Hands are Clamps. You've heard that a thousand times)

7-2. GRlP TYPES ...Unless, of course, there is Hand manipulation-intentional
or unintentional...

Eventually, it's up to the Player to do one way or the other or both. ( A million ways to swing a club.)

7-10. HINGE ACTIONS "Hinge Actions" describe and control the
manipulation of the Hands through the Impact Interval. This Hand
manipulation in turn controls the Clubface alignment.

The Hands are being manipulated. "Hinge Actions" describe and control the Manipulation of the Hands. Don't directly manipulate them. Actually, they're being "Held" as in "God, don't move them, let them be moved".


Brian, have you had a chance to read the definition of "Hinge Action" in the Glossary? You're a GSED aren't you?

HINGE ACTION Example – all types of swinging doors.
Mechanical – The blade of a hinge is always vertical to its Plane of Rotation.
Golf – Holding the Flat Left Wrist vertical to one of the Three Basic Planes will impart the same motion to the Clubface.

 

[Michael Finney]

To be fair, there are only about 6 book literalists out there......gmbtempe is not in their camp and richie has verified such....

So to even have an uproar or a backlash you would have to have more offended people....

 

[Daryl]

To be fair, there are only about 6 book literalists out there......gmbtempe is not in their camp and richie has verified such....

So to even have an uproar or a backlash you would have to have more offended people....

That many. I thought there were only three of us.


Why all the TGM Bashing. Why does anyone here at the Brian Manzella Golf Forum care to waste any time with that banter. If you think TGM is full of shit, then good for you guys for trying to find the Truth.

I look forward to reading about your scientific research on some matters. Don't let this combative crap get in your way.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

This is really good popcorn...i think i'm going to go get some more

 

[Brian Manzella]

"This means that even with precise geometrical alignments the ball will not separate from the club at more than 80% of their approach speed."

Actually the number is now 83% with drivers, and of course Mr. Kelley wouldn't have known that, modern drivers came "After Macon."


"That produces, roughly, this condition – the Clubhead approaching Impact at 100 MPH has slowed to 80 MPH at separation. The ball leaves the Club at about 70 MPH (70% of the 100 MPH approach speed). To do this the ball must be traveling at 150 MPH. If the Clubhead speed at separation is 40 MPH, the ball can only travel 110 MPH under this law. Notice this – the ball acquires only 70% of the Clubhead “approach” speed (so there must be speed) 100% of the Clubhead “separation” speed (so there must be resistance to deceleration)."

I'm just guessing that this math is so wrong, it is comical. Would you like me to run the real numbers down?


"Zero Deceleration is what would give maximum ball speed for any and all approach speeds. Speed (Centrifugal Pull) and Prestress (Acceleration) stiffen the Clubshaft for consistent (minimum to maximum) resistance to Impact Deceleration."

The question was asked to Dr. Paul Wood at the symposium, "Dr. Wood, is there ANY way for ANYTHING to change the ball speed given a certain impact condition, like a level strike with a 10° deliver loft straight path and clubface for instance."

No.

What about a a really stiff shaft?

No.

What about....?

No.

Or...?

No.

Then it safe to say no, correct?

Yes.


Who cares HOW Hinge Action is performed, Homer's math on what the ball would do is all wrong.

You wanna see?

 

[Michael Finney]

( A million ways to swing a club.)

But only one way to sell a brand.....don't paint yourself into a corner, Daryl.....let Lynn do it to himself