The Golfing Machine heads to obscurity on the book shelf
- Thread starter Michael Jacobs
- Start date
- Status
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Michael Finney
New
Jack told Arnie......
And then Lynn said:
And then Lynn said:
Homer Kelley was a very cool guy. His understanding of Golf Stroke Mechanics had no progenitor. Nor, to date, even a parallel.
Meanwhile, we have today a captained handful of TGM 'nouveau-sect' focused on their own negative bias: Namely, their molehill perception of miniscule error against the mountain of irrefutable fact that is absolutely correct.
Few, if any, of those comprising this sect (which joys in confrontation) ever met the man himself. I find it very curious: These misfits -- they welcome the characterization, at least with regards to TGM -- readily acknowledge their debt to Mr. Kelley. Yet, they then turn their entire attention to damning his work.
All while flying the TGM colors.
An odd world, isn't it?Meanwhile, we have today a captained handful of TGM 'nouveau-sect' focused on their own negative bias: Namely, their molehill perception of miniscule error against the mountain of irrefutable fact that is absolutely correct.
Few, if any, of those comprising this sect (which joys in confrontation) ever met the man himself. I find it very curious: These misfits -- they welcome the characterization, at least with regards to TGM -- readily acknowledge their debt to Mr. Kelley. Yet, they then turn their entire attention to damning his work.
All while flying the TGM colors.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Impact Math by Dr. Aaron Zick
Whether "Hinge Action" can or can't be done in the real world on purpose (and BTW, no human can even come remotely close, we are talking .3° of closing for "Angled Hinging" and .6° for "Horizontal Hinging" during the impact interval), it matters ZERO to what "Hinge Action" is SUPPOSED to do—according to Homer Kelley—to the ball.
Whether "Hinge Action" is controlled by deliberate left hand, right forearm, orbiting arms, turning torso, or a magic wand resembling a dowel, is not the point at ALL.
Homer got the BALL BEHAVIOR very, very, very wrong.
So wrong in fact, that following MATH is "spotting" Homer the bottom vector of the D-Plane.
Homer INCORRECTLY (wow we have to use those two words together a lot) conceived that the Plane Line would suffice.
Dr. Zick's math SUPPOSES a perfectly straight at the target, bottom vector of the D-Plane—or in English SWEETSPOT PATH—occurring perfectly at the right time and perfectly aimed at the target.
Here it is:
Good.
Now if you include a straight plane line—which Homer did—and the Tour averages of angle of attack, Homer is "in the woods," so-to-speak.
Whether "Hinge Action" can or can't be done in the real world on purpose (and BTW, no human can even come remotely close, we are talking .3° of closing for "Angled Hinging" and .6° for "Horizontal Hinging" during the impact interval), it matters ZERO to what "Hinge Action" is SUPPOSED to do—according to Homer Kelley—to the ball.
Whether "Hinge Action" is controlled by deliberate left hand, right forearm, orbiting arms, turning torso, or a magic wand resembling a dowel, is not the point at ALL.
Homer got the BALL BEHAVIOR very, very, very wrong.
So wrong in fact, that following MATH is "spotting" Homer the bottom vector of the D-Plane.
Homer INCORRECTLY (wow we have to use those two words together a lot) conceived that the Plane Line would suffice.
Dr. Zick's math SUPPOSES a perfectly straight at the target, bottom vector of the D-Plane—or in English SWEETSPOT PATH—occurring perfectly at the right time and perfectly aimed at the target.
Here it is:
"Although the club face's direction at separation doesn't determine the direction of the ball's flight, I didn't exactly say that the ball leaves the club face in the direction of the force at the ball's greatest deformation. I said that that direction would be a fairly good approximation of the ball's direction (much better than the face's direction at separation, anyway).
The ball is influenced by the club only between the time of first contact (let's call that tc) and the time of separation (ts). The velocity vector at separation (Vs) will equal the integral of its acceleration vector over time, from tc to ts. The acceleration vector equals the vector of net force on the ball (F) divided by the ball's mass (m). F is actually a function of time, expressed as F(t). It changes in both magnitude and direction during the impact interval. It is zero at tc and ts, climbs to a maximum magnitude of several thousand pounds at the time of maximum ball compression, and must average about 1400 pounds to accelerate the ball from 0 to 150 mph within half a millisecond (the approximate difference between ts and tc). Mathematically, then,
Vs = Integral from tc to ts of F(t)/m dt.
The direction of F(t) will be dominated by the club face's normal vector at time t. There might be a smaller contribution from frictional shear forces if the club head's velocity vector doesn't align with the club face's normal vector at any given time. This will, of course, be true if the club has a nonzero loft, but we're not interested in the vertical components of the forces and velocities here. Let's define a right-handed coordinate system with x in the direction that our assumed right-handed golfer would face at set-up, y in the direction of his target, and z in the vertical direction. From this point on, we will ignore the z direction, treating F(t) and Vs as two-dimensional vectors with x and y components only (as though the club had zero loft).
Let's first consider Homer Kelley's "angled hinging", during which the club head's x-y velocity vector will always align with the club face's x-y normal vector. Assuming the club head doesn't twist from an off-center hit during impact, there will theoretically be no shearing forces on the ball (imparting no side-spin, contrary to Kelley's assertions about angled hinging), so F(t) will always align with the face's normal vector (technically, the dynamics of ball compression and decompression might affect the direction of F slightly, but we will ignore any such potential complications).
If the swing is designed to have the club face's normal vector aligned with the y direction (i.e., pointing at the target) at separation, then the normal vector will have a zero x component at ts, but it will have a positive x component for all previous times (since the club face is continually closing as its normal vector follows the club head's path). As a result, F(t), which aligns with the normal vector, and which is zero at tc and ts, will have a positive x component for all times in between. Therefore, from the integral above, Vs is guaranteed to have a positive x component. In other words, the ball will be pushed somewhat to the right of the target.
Similarly, if the club face is squared to the target line at tc, then its normal vector, hence F(t), will have a negative component for all subsequent times, guaranteeing that Vs will have a negative x component. In other words, the ball will be pulled somewhat to the left of the target.
For the ball to fly directly at the target, Vs must have a zero x component. The only way that can happen is for F(t), and therefore the club face's normal vector, to have negative x components during the later portions of the impact interval to offset the positive x components from the earlier portions. Therefore, the club face must be square to the target line about midway between tc and ts. The exact time (let's call it tm) would be very difficult to calculate, but a good approximation would be the time of maximum compression. That would also make sense, intuitively, since that is when the club will exert most of its influence on the ball.
The situation is a little more complicated with "horizontal hinging", during which the club face is square to the club head's path only when it is square to the target line. Before that time, the club face will be slightly open to the target line (creating a normal force with a positive x component) and to the club head path (adding a clockwise shearing force to the ball). After that time, the club face will be slightly closed to the target line (creating a normal force with a negative x component) and to the club head path (adding a counter-clockwise shearing force). For this type of swing, it is even more important to have the club face square to the target line about midway between tc and ts. Prior to the club face becoming square to the target line (and to the club head path), F(t) will still have a positive x component, but now, because of the shearing contribution, F(t) will be directed slightly to the left of the ball's center. That will induce a clockwise torque on the ball, giving it a slicing side-spin. If the club face doesn't become square until ts, the ball will be guaranteed to have a positive x component for Vs and a non-zero clockwise angular velocity. In other words, the ball will be both pushed and sliced somewhat to the right of the target. Similarly, if the club face is squared at tc, the normal vector, and hence F(t), will have a negative x component for all subsequent times. In addition, because of the shearing contribution, F(t) will be directed slightly to the right of the ball's center, inducing a counter-clockwise torque throughout the impact interval. The ball will therefore be guaranteed to have a negative x component for Vs and a non-zero counter-clockwise side-spin. In other words, the ball will be both pulled and hooked to the left of the target.
For the ball to fly directly at the target, with little or no side-spin, the horizontal hinging must be performed in a way that squares the club face to the target line (and the club head path) about midway between tc and ts, say at tm. Between tc and tm, F(t) will have a positive x component and will cause a clockwise torque (and hence, angular acceleration) on the ball. Between tm and ts, F(t) will have a negative x component and will cause a counter-clockwise torque (and hence, angular acceleration) on the ball. A judicious choice of tm will cause the x components of F(t) and the opposing directions of angular acceleration to integrate to nearly zero (it might not be possible to exactly zero both simultaneously, however), giving a ball flight straight at the target with little or no side-spin. The exact value of tm would again be very difficult to calculate, but a good approximation would again be the time of maximum compression, which is again when the club exerts most of its influence on the ball.
Got it?The ball is influenced by the club only between the time of first contact (let's call that tc) and the time of separation (ts). The velocity vector at separation (Vs) will equal the integral of its acceleration vector over time, from tc to ts. The acceleration vector equals the vector of net force on the ball (F) divided by the ball's mass (m). F is actually a function of time, expressed as F(t). It changes in both magnitude and direction during the impact interval. It is zero at tc and ts, climbs to a maximum magnitude of several thousand pounds at the time of maximum ball compression, and must average about 1400 pounds to accelerate the ball from 0 to 150 mph within half a millisecond (the approximate difference between ts and tc). Mathematically, then,
Vs = Integral from tc to ts of F(t)/m dt.
The direction of F(t) will be dominated by the club face's normal vector at time t. There might be a smaller contribution from frictional shear forces if the club head's velocity vector doesn't align with the club face's normal vector at any given time. This will, of course, be true if the club has a nonzero loft, but we're not interested in the vertical components of the forces and velocities here. Let's define a right-handed coordinate system with x in the direction that our assumed right-handed golfer would face at set-up, y in the direction of his target, and z in the vertical direction. From this point on, we will ignore the z direction, treating F(t) and Vs as two-dimensional vectors with x and y components only (as though the club had zero loft).
Let's first consider Homer Kelley's "angled hinging", during which the club head's x-y velocity vector will always align with the club face's x-y normal vector. Assuming the club head doesn't twist from an off-center hit during impact, there will theoretically be no shearing forces on the ball (imparting no side-spin, contrary to Kelley's assertions about angled hinging), so F(t) will always align with the face's normal vector (technically, the dynamics of ball compression and decompression might affect the direction of F slightly, but we will ignore any such potential complications).
If the swing is designed to have the club face's normal vector aligned with the y direction (i.e., pointing at the target) at separation, then the normal vector will have a zero x component at ts, but it will have a positive x component for all previous times (since the club face is continually closing as its normal vector follows the club head's path). As a result, F(t), which aligns with the normal vector, and which is zero at tc and ts, will have a positive x component for all times in between. Therefore, from the integral above, Vs is guaranteed to have a positive x component. In other words, the ball will be pushed somewhat to the right of the target.
Similarly, if the club face is squared to the target line at tc, then its normal vector, hence F(t), will have a negative component for all subsequent times, guaranteeing that Vs will have a negative x component. In other words, the ball will be pulled somewhat to the left of the target.
For the ball to fly directly at the target, Vs must have a zero x component. The only way that can happen is for F(t), and therefore the club face's normal vector, to have negative x components during the later portions of the impact interval to offset the positive x components from the earlier portions. Therefore, the club face must be square to the target line about midway between tc and ts. The exact time (let's call it tm) would be very difficult to calculate, but a good approximation would be the time of maximum compression. That would also make sense, intuitively, since that is when the club will exert most of its influence on the ball.
The situation is a little more complicated with "horizontal hinging", during which the club face is square to the club head's path only when it is square to the target line. Before that time, the club face will be slightly open to the target line (creating a normal force with a positive x component) and to the club head path (adding a clockwise shearing force to the ball). After that time, the club face will be slightly closed to the target line (creating a normal force with a negative x component) and to the club head path (adding a counter-clockwise shearing force). For this type of swing, it is even more important to have the club face square to the target line about midway between tc and ts. Prior to the club face becoming square to the target line (and to the club head path), F(t) will still have a positive x component, but now, because of the shearing contribution, F(t) will be directed slightly to the left of the ball's center. That will induce a clockwise torque on the ball, giving it a slicing side-spin. If the club face doesn't become square until ts, the ball will be guaranteed to have a positive x component for Vs and a non-zero clockwise angular velocity. In other words, the ball will be both pushed and sliced somewhat to the right of the target. Similarly, if the club face is squared at tc, the normal vector, and hence F(t), will have a negative x component for all subsequent times. In addition, because of the shearing contribution, F(t) will be directed slightly to the right of the ball's center, inducing a counter-clockwise torque throughout the impact interval. The ball will therefore be guaranteed to have a negative x component for Vs and a non-zero counter-clockwise side-spin. In other words, the ball will be both pulled and hooked to the left of the target.
For the ball to fly directly at the target, with little or no side-spin, the horizontal hinging must be performed in a way that squares the club face to the target line (and the club head path) about midway between tc and ts, say at tm. Between tc and tm, F(t) will have a positive x component and will cause a clockwise torque (and hence, angular acceleration) on the ball. Between tm and ts, F(t) will have a negative x component and will cause a counter-clockwise torque (and hence, angular acceleration) on the ball. A judicious choice of tm will cause the x components of F(t) and the opposing directions of angular acceleration to integrate to nearly zero (it might not be possible to exactly zero both simultaneously, however), giving a ball flight straight at the target with little or no side-spin. The exact value of tm would again be very difficult to calculate, but a good approximation would again be the time of maximum compression, which is again when the club exerts most of its influence on the ball.
Good.
Now if you include a straight plane line—which Homer did—and the Tour averages of angle of attack, Homer is "in the woods," so-to-speak.
Dr. Zick apparently understands Hinging better than you. However, I'm still concerned about how Hinging, Angled and Horizontal was presented to him. Did you demonstrate the "Paddlewheel" Action of the Right Forearm around the Axis of it's associated Plane? You know, the way you learned in GSED School.
I really appreciate his comments and I agree with him that Compression Vectors have a greater value than "Glancing Spin".
The more you learn, the more we learn. Thank you.
I really appreciate his comments and I agree with him that Compression Vectors have a greater value than "Glancing Spin".
The more you learn, the more we learn. Thank you.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
It doesn't MATTER HOW IT IS PERFORMED!!!!!!!!
THE BALL DOESN'T KNOW HOW, IT JUST KNOWS WHAT.
Do you have ANY idea of how much Dr. Zick's findings make the book incorrect?
This doesn't even account for the D-Plane.
You know the D-Plane?
Don't get me started on that.
You guys are KILLING the book. I gave ya'll an out....
Brian Manzella
Administrator
That's right. That's not "Obscurity".
"1-L-20 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o
ocumentProperties> <o:Version>12.00</o:Version> </oocumentProperties> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:RelyOnVML/> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <wontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="true" DefSemiHidden="true" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99" LatentStyleCount="267"> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Normal"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="heading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" QFormat="true" Name="caption"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="59" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Table Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Placeholder Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Revision"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="List Paragraph"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} </style> <![endif]--> For any given Line of Compression (through the ball) every Machine must produce identical Impact Alignments. "
Last edited:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hmmm....
Now we are getting somewhere....1-L....
OK...
Here we go:
1-L -
That's right.
"1-L-20 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o
Now we are getting somewhere....1-L....
OK...
Here we go:
1-L -
#17. The Clubface needs to be square to the Line-Of-Flight only at Point
of Separation.
This is wrong, now be man and admit it—right now, or this is a useless discussion.of Separation.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Hey Daryl,
After your admission or silence on Brian's post I have some other favors to ask of you
#1
Would like to see you or a designated Book Minutia specialist demonstrate this for me on a 3D machine
'Did you demonstrate the "Paddlewheel" Action of the Right Forearm around the Axis of it's associated Plane? You know, the way you learned in GSED School.'
You have probably never been on 3D, there is one here I will let you borrow it
Whenever you want to apologize for the unnecessary comments you made about would be a bonus too...
NOBODY in the whole clan would have benefited more than myself from the book being correct. But its not, it saved some time and set us back an equal amount. Now is the time for you boys to start your own thing make the modifications and call it something else or stop trying to make it adhere to a Philosophy about the truth
Brian, we all know that it's a useless discussion. Continuing much further is a pointless waste of time. I made my point that Jacobs has "Misquoted" and "Misrepresented" TGM. His misquote was an intentional omission and his "Hinging" explanation demonstrates a misrepresentation of the material. If he publishes his work this way, then I'll be busy writing to the Editors and offering my perspective and interpretation and I'll ask for retraction of every "misquote".
I'll answer your question. I think that's it's a very important question. I think that Homer Kelley, given the Decade the book was published, was saying that the Clubface should not be square to the Line of Flight at Impact but rather at Separation, dispelling a common thought of the day when golfers tried to hit the ball square. I read what he said, and that's how I look at it. Any work, more than a couple of decades old, needs a historical examination.
Homer Kelley, as does Zick and Jorgensen, admit that collision is very complex. Homer Kelley places importance at "Separation", while Zick thinks that somewhere between Maximum compression and Separation. Zick admits that it depends on many factors and what may be correct for one situation may not be at another. So, Zick offers us some flexibility.
But why does every collision question seem to assume a High Speed Driver Impact? Why don't we start with the shortest-slowest-Putt, and work our way up? Ball resilience, Face material, Friction, etc. need to be studied simultaneously. Unless we can measure those things accurately and compare them under varying conditions, then we'll need to rely on our assumptions that it's somewhere between Maximum Compression and Separation. But as Homer Kelley tried to teach then, and we all know now, it certainly isn't Impact.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Yeah you right, Mike....and now
From the 6th edition of The Golfing Machine....
1-L -
From the 6th edition of The Golfing Machine....
1-L -
#17. The Clubface needs to be square to the Line-Of-Flight only at Point
of Separation.
This is wrong, now be man and admit it—right now, or this is a useless discussion.of Separation.
birdie_man
New
Did "L" write this?
For his sake, I hope not.
(that is not a threat BTW...it would be the antonym)
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Only a useless discussion because your out of book minutia
Misrepresented?? don't think so pal.... maybe you should read the whole article it is about Dynamic Loft
You guys are on your last leg and one foot is on a banana peel
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Whew!
Really Daryl, in any real debate, you just lost.
You guys can NOT ever just say the truth, not even once.
And that's why there is BIG problem with me.
TRUTH. Not spin.
Why don't you just drop all of this political defense tactics nonsense, and start to learn some real science.
We are setting up MULTIPLE meetings with WORLD-CLASS scientists this winter.
What kind of new groundbreaking research are you guys doing over at the dead poets society?
Dude,
A simple Homer was incorrect, and didn't have the mathematical expertise of an Aaron Zick or Paul Wood, nor any modern measurement devices, will do.
Really.
You couldn't do it.
And EVERY SINGLE OPEN MINDED PERSON who reads this will agree 100% with me.
Zick is an actual scientist. So was Jorgensen and so is Wood.
Homer was quite the thinker, but was not a PHD by any stretch.
Homer's placement of importance at "Separation" is wrong.
Just admit it.
Don't re-frame it.
This is a fight for the rest of the history of golf instruction, and you are on the front line.
Come on, a simple Homer was wrong there will make you look somewhat reasonable.
Paul Wood was asked that question, and the answer was it is all very similar and all speeds.
If I thought you'd have fought this hard with incorrect, incomplete TGM book info at the symposium, I'd have paid your way.
They can where Dr. Wood works, and they have. They have a camera that takes HD quality pics at 50,000 fps.
Been there done that.
We went to Ping with 100 questions last year.
Didn't see your guys there though.
You are coming across as everything I have ever said a "book literalist" is.
You can't give up an inch, even when ALL THE DATA, and ALL THE SCIENTISTS, line up against you.
Fascinating, really.
Really Daryl, in any real debate, you just lost.
You guys can NOT ever just say the truth, not even once.
And that's why there is BIG problem with me.
TRUTH. Not spin.
Why don't you just drop all of this political defense tactics nonsense, and start to learn some real science.
We are setting up MULTIPLE meetings with WORLD-CLASS scientists this winter.
What kind of new groundbreaking research are you guys doing over at the dead poets society?
Dude,
A simple Homer was incorrect, and didn't have the mathematical expertise of an Aaron Zick or Paul Wood, nor any modern measurement devices, will do.
Really.
You couldn't do it.
And EVERY SINGLE OPEN MINDED PERSON who reads this will agree 100% with me.
Zick is an actual scientist. So was Jorgensen and so is Wood.
Homer was quite the thinker, but was not a PHD by any stretch.
Homer's placement of importance at "Separation" is wrong.
Just admit it.
Don't re-frame it.
This is a fight for the rest of the history of golf instruction, and you are on the front line.
Come on, a simple Homer was wrong there will make you look somewhat reasonable.
Paul Wood was asked that question, and the answer was it is all very similar and all speeds.
If I thought you'd have fought this hard with incorrect, incomplete TGM book info at the symposium, I'd have paid your way.
They can where Dr. Wood works, and they have. They have a camera that takes HD quality pics at 50,000 fps.
Been there done that.
We went to Ping with 100 questions last year.
Didn't see your guys there though.
You are coming across as everything I have ever said a "book literalist" is.
You can't give up an inch, even when ALL THE DATA, and ALL THE SCIENTISTS, line up against you.
Fascinating, really.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Brian,
Wonderful post..... really insightful, boy did they have a bad scouting report on you.
I thought Book Literalist was a banned term -- the politically correct term is now
BOOK MINUTIA SPECIALIST
Michael, I was harsh and my comments would have been phrased differently had you not mentioned your intentions to publish. However had you not mentioned your intentions to publish I wouldn't have responded at all.
Whether or not you understand the material isn't any of my business. But, you did misquote and your interpretation of Hinging is certainly nowhere near my explanation nor to Homer Kelley's concise definition in the glossary. If you do continue like this, and publish, then I'll write the Editors and explain a different perspective and ask for a retraction for any misquotes. What good would that do for the Golf World? Nothing, but for me, it's just standing up for what I believe is the right thing to do.
I don't know the people who own and operate the Golfing Machine and I couldn't care less what happens to them or if TGM someday can only be found on an obscure shelf in an obscure public library like most all of the golf books ever written. But I don't think it will. I don't have any financial or other interests in TGM or Golf in general. I think it's a difficult and challenging work and some concepts border on genius in many ways. I find many of Homer Kelley's concepts irresistibly compelling to understand which is probably why it's sometimes difficult not to speak up when others use misinformation to belittle it.
If you don't think that TGM is enough for you, I don't consider it any of my business.
But this conversation has gone on long enough to know that if it doesn't end now, it will deteriorate even more. So, what do you say Michael? I don't see anyone defending your misquote or your interpretation of Hinging. Do you want to continue with this and explain how your "Swivel" interpretation is anything near what Homer Kelley wrote about Hinging or how you inadvertently forgot to include an important part of your Homer Kelley quote? Or would you like me to go away?
Last edited:
You have invested a lot of effort and time into something you don't care about. I think you care.
Oh? I care a lot about the concepts, but I don't care at all about the business. I think the business about golf totally sucks. If you look at the way the some business owners go at each other it looks more like a girl fight. For someone like me who cares about the information, seeing dog fights all the time is really depressing.
Last edited:
Are you part of the fight or just a bystander?
- Status