S
SteveT
Guest
As long as my 'mind's eye' is not affected.... and Arturo is a pussy cat... a too nice guy...
The inner game - any experience?
- Thread starter ParHunter
- Start date
- Status
As long as my 'mind's eye' is not affected.... and Arturo is a pussy cat... a too nice guy...
Dear KGlennCove,
For sure, I suggest "The Inner Game of Golf" Revised Edition. My hard cover copy denotes it is a 'revised edition' published by Random House in 1981, (and previously published in "Golf Magazine).
I am in communication with him, but due to his schedule, have not yet had a chance to meet him personally. I am very interested in further discussing any updates/experiences regarding 'awareness instructions' and their effect on learning/retention.
Regarding learning, IMO, long standing skills/habits that are determined to need changing create a real challenge for both the teacher and the student. My experiences with 'awareness instructions' for golf indicate a faster change to the new/better characteristic
because of what I call 'awareness UNLEARNING'.
My pseudo scientific explanation, with absolutely no basis at this time, is that being aware of the problem area, encourages the body to participate in a more acceptable movement, which in turn is REINFORCED by the feedback of either the more favorable actual flight of the golf ball, the results of TrackMan/FlightScope, or best of all, both.
Experiences over the past few years have been favorable in speeding up the learning experiences AND quality of shot improvements of recorded performance on both launch monitors and several 3D systems. I have chosen to temporarily believe that the older/undesirable habits/skills were not OVERTAKEN by a need for an equivalent number of 'new' swing habits, but were, because of the characteristics of the 'awareness process' WITH FEEDBACK, first UNLEARNED, and then RELEARNED with both the golfers self optimizing capabilities, and instructors help.
S
SteveT
Guest
Arturo ... very interesting personal observations. When you say "Experiences over the past few years...." ... I assume they are anecdotal experiences. BTW, how long have you been playing golf?
I have the 1974 edition of The Inner Game of Tennis ... and Gallwey's dedication of the book is interesting:
• for my mother and father who brought me to the game and for Guru Maharaj Ji who showed me what Winning is....
Perhaps BrianM will be the scientific Guru for golf instruction now...
I have the 1974 edition of The Inner Game of Tennis ... and Gallwey's dedication of the book is interesting:
• for my mother and father who brought me to the game and for Guru Maharaj Ji who showed me what Winning is....
Perhaps BrianM will be the scientific Guru for golf instruction now...
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Arturo?
S
SteveT
Guest
Hey, "Kev"..... "Arturo" is "art" in Italian ....... just like "Brian" in English is "Briano" (pronounced Bree-ah-noh) in Italian.
What do you think Brian's parents called him at home...
:
hp12c
New
Parhunter there is another book u may wish purchase it is called double connexion by Carey Mumford. Mr Mumford wants to disengage the consciuos mind and let the subconscious mind take over the golfswing. It is a little more complicated than my short version/explanation. Good luck.
Dear ParHunter,
I just reread my response to you and realized I did not answer your major questions, sorry.
(1) Yes I have a several years of favorable experiences implementing THE AWARENESS INSTRUCTION chapter, and find it a very effective way for the student to improve by learning more quickly, and retaining what was being taught. So, as an example of how to implement 'awareness learning', let me specifically address your second point/question of too much shoulder turn.
While this may seem 'far out', and too simplistic, please give it a fair chance, and let us know what happened.
If it were possible for us to get together, here is how things would proceed. After you had warmed up, I would ask you to take a few full energy swings, and then hit 10 shots. Hopefully, we would have access to at least a launch monitor to record you present/standard performance as a baseline, or reference.
Next, and now without the launch monitor FOR A WHILE, I would ask you to hit the next ball, and be prepared to fully explain to me, BY YOUR AWARENESS ALONE, and right after the shot, what was your back swing like ??. (From your comments above, I would simply want you to tell me if your shoulders turned 120 degrees, and was that more or less than what you had planned). We would next agree on a numerical value for this amount of shoulder turn, and from my background and your comments above, I would suggest we pick a '2' for that amount of back swing. Now it's back to work and 10 more swings, after which swing, and BASED SOLELY ON YOUR AWARENESS/FEEDBACK, you tell me/us if that swing was less than, or more than the '2' you assigned to the last swing. My experiences indicate that with the feedback from the results of the multiple shots, you will see and experience that you will naturally gravitate towards scores of '1' (a shorter back swing) rather than a '3' (a larger, or more strained back swing.
Finally, I would ask you to hit 10 more shots WITH THE LAUNCH MONITOR, and set as your goal, the objective of '1' back swings, and CONTINUE to note, from awareness, what each of these last 10 swings produce, and it's OK if a few '2s', or '3s', got into the 10 swings, as this is a 'habit changing' process, and it will take a little time to stabilize.
There is much more in the book that will increase your understanding of how and why this works, so good luck reading and trying this 'Awareness Methodology' as a unique candidate for improving motor control.
Here’s one for you Inner Game guru’s: This occurred on a few occasions. At the range I will set a number of clubs out to use during practice session. As I’m into the session a bit I will change out each club after a few shots. My normal distance for an eight iron is about 155-160 max. On a number of occasions I will grab what I think is the seven iron to hit to a target of 170. Without paying much attention I unknowingly had actually grabbed an eight iron. The first shot comes up short of 170 and I think ‘Geez I must have miss hit it’, so the second shot I think ‘I need to get to the 170 mark’ and take another couple of swings. Sure enough I hit it about 170. Then to my surprise I discover I was actually hitting an eight iron.’ Wow, I’ll hit some more’. Every shot after my discovery is 155-160 no matter what I try to do with the swing I can’t get beyond 160. What gives? How do I get out of my own way?
KGlennCole
New
Thanks, Art. It's hard to see what version the iBook is. The cover shown on iTunes does not say Revised, although iTunes indicates a publish date of 1998 and, below the excerpt, says "From the Hardcover edition". I may just buy a physical copy rather than the iBook version.
The most difficult aspect, I think, will be UNLEARNING. Heck, I'm 57.. not that I've learned a lot, but I tend to wander and not concentrate. I'm especially prone to having thoughts during my putting stroke (For example, events that have happened, business thought, etc.) and, to some extent, during a full swing. I'm easily distracted or let things bother me for a hole or few holes. When I concentrate, I do fairly well. I need an On/Off switch.
The most difficult aspect, I think, will be UNLEARNING. Heck, I'm 57.. not that I've learned a lot, but I tend to wander and not concentrate. I'm especially prone to having thoughts during my putting stroke (For example, events that have happened, business thought, etc.) and, to some extent, during a full swing. I'm easily distracted or let things bother me for a hole or few holes. When I concentrate, I do fairly well. I need an On/Off switch.
Dear sacto84,
I am not a teacher by any stretch of the imagination, but my 5 years searching for 'golf truth' thru science provides me the ability to have pseudo-scientific opinions about 'almost' everything to do with a full golf swing.
I also want to point out, up front, 'what I know' from believable scientific research, and 'what I THINK' based upon much less detailed evidence, but sufficient to write about it, and communicate my lack of hard data by borrowing from computer linguistics, i.e., IMO ......
So with regard to your not being able to recreate 170 yard 8 irons, I believe the extra effort you put in trying to 'standardize' this level of performance IMO subtly changed the characteristics of the following swings attempting to hit the 8 iron 170 yards.
My experience with somewhat similar situations, (using a Trackman or FlightScope), have indicated, that when TRYING to hit harder, there is often a reduction in several parameters that significantly affect distance such as 'smash factor', vertical launch angle, and horizontal spin rate. Of particular interest in your case would be the dispersions of these parameters if you were lucky enough to record multiple swings.
As these are clearly the EFFECT of 'swinging harder', the potential CAUSES are IMO (1) less efficient transfer of shoulder complex contribution to club head velocity due to a more horizontal shoulder plane trying to hit harder, and/or (2) undetectable loss of lower body dynamic balance/stability triggering the early firing of the left side antagonistic muscle slings, whose job it is to efficiently AND without trauma, decelerate the whole body and club in the now overpowered follow-thru.
PLEASE, if you have ANY launch monitor or better yet, 3D data of these events, please post it, I would like to analyze this in more detail.
While I have spent the majority of my efforts trying to understand the back swing and downswing, I am becoming very interested in the follow-thru and how it may impact the quality of the swing up until impact.
Looking forward to your reply, and the comments of the learned professionals that participate generously on this site.
S
SteveT
Guest
arturo:
When golfers try to "hit harder" they may attempt one of these manoevers:
1. Put more effort at top of swing reversal by pulling on the club with the shoulders or arms. This works if there is sufficient "toss-out" arc at the beginning which converts to arm sliding and articulations.
2. Attempts more 'hand couple' forces in the middle of the downswing, which only puts the club and kinetic sequencing out of kilter.
3. Attempting to "nail" the ball with the rear right hand, as they would throw a weighted ball tangentially. Death move!!
Hitting harder invariably means more aggressive arm actions at the expense of the body action. There is still a belief the downswing is initiated by the arms and the body follows the arms.... a sort of reverse kinetics with an arms-down swing rather than the feet up swing.
Scientific "golf truths" are still subordinate to subjective "feedback feel"... because "if I can't feeel it how do I know I'm doing it" logic.
Your "pseudo-scientific" opinion is more like insightful "intuitive physics" because it's based on your education and work qualifications. Keep on truckin'.....
When golfers try to "hit harder" they may attempt one of these manoevers:
1. Put more effort at top of swing reversal by pulling on the club with the shoulders or arms. This works if there is sufficient "toss-out" arc at the beginning which converts to arm sliding and articulations.
2. Attempts more 'hand couple' forces in the middle of the downswing, which only puts the club and kinetic sequencing out of kilter.
3. Attempting to "nail" the ball with the rear right hand, as they would throw a weighted ball tangentially. Death move!!
Hitting harder invariably means more aggressive arm actions at the expense of the body action. There is still a belief the downswing is initiated by the arms and the body follows the arms.... a sort of reverse kinetics with an arms-down swing rather than the feet up swing.
Scientific "golf truths" are still subordinate to subjective "feedback feel"... because "if I can't feeel it how do I know I'm doing it" logic.
Your "pseudo-scientific" opinion is more like insightful "intuitive physics" because it's based on your education and work qualifications. Keep on truckin'.....
Last edited:
I checked on Amazon and the release date for the Kindle version is 31 Oct 2010, so it looks like it will be the most recent version.
birdie_man
New
I second this recommendation fully. Helpful for golf, and for life. Lots of useful info, based on principles, and the program works well as a whole.
But speaking of executing a golf shot, he doesn't wish people to disengage the conscious mind, but to have them fill it with something not directing action, and non-golf related. This is his "clear key", based on what he calls "the automatic principle".
To be honest, I not sure right now what the (as the title of his newest book refers to) "double connexion" is, but it either refers to the "mind-body connection", the conscious and the non-conscious, and/or executing on "automatic" (from soundly built habits) and knowing your "behaviour style".
I'm not a pro, but for sure I have had success applying the concepts of his book, and for practice, his "32 ball drill" is a good one I think. (8 sets of 4)
And definitely not putting it here as an after-thought, nor do I want to stir up a contentious religious discussion, but I will recommend the bible as well. I've found it is much different than people often make it out to be, even those who claim they live by it. Apply (if you wish) the concepts directly to golf, and/or live better and reap the overall benefits.
"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."-2 Timothy 3:16-17
If your golf is a good work...
Note: I realize now, ParHunter, you were asking about a specific book, not "the inner game" in general.
Last edited:
birdie_man
New
Interesting. I'm pretty sure Jack said he used to play (some of?) his best golf singing "Raindrops keep falling on my head" to himself (I think), which is interesting. And I think Oral Hershiser used to often sing to himself on the mound too. There are other examples, and Carey provides some.
He also makes an interesting claim on Moe Norman. It isn't something he advertizes much, but he says that he spent time with Moe, and that Moe would repeat to himself "I am pure energy", and envision Niagara Falls. (in slow motion?) Carey says that Moe learned to do this on his own.
Frankly, I don't know why he doesn't advertize it more. Surely there will be some skeptics, which is fine. But maybe he doesn't want to disrespect Moe's name? I really don't know, though like Brian I think said, lots of people are marketing dead golfers these days. (I'm not saying it's all bad)
Me, I have a hard time believing that the most dedicated golfers did (and do) not work really hard on their mental skills as well. Were they gifted? For sure. But that didn't stop them from spending hours practicing. I guess that was (and is) mostly purposeful, and not just for fun, or whatever.
Moe knew what he was doing w a golf club too, for sure, but Carey's is an interesting claim nonetheless. It isn't something I have heard anywhere else. Anyone can take it as they wish, though I think there's "something" to his work anyway.
Not much is known about Moe overall though. To my knowledge, he didn't write a book, didn't write articles, didn't even describe his swing very much. He was too busy performing, maybe. And I think he only opened up to select people who he trusted.
On "earworms", I don't know, but Carey advises distracting (you said that, but said "disengaging" too) the conscious mind. "Clear" (clarity), not "empty" (absence of conscious thought). In his book, it isn't so much about getting it stuck in your head, moreso about filling/distracting your conscious mind during execution of a shot. (some seconds)
But you have to have firm habits built first. (he advises the "32 ball drill"- 8 sets of 4, alternating "manual and automatic") And it helps to know what to habitualize, for sure.
I'm sorry if I blab on. Good topic. And people need relief (or at least helpful options) from all the nonsense.
Earworms ahhh!!
He also makes an interesting claim on Moe Norman. It isn't something he advertizes much, but he says that he spent time with Moe, and that Moe would repeat to himself "I am pure energy", and envision Niagara Falls. (in slow motion?) Carey says that Moe learned to do this on his own.
Frankly, I don't know why he doesn't advertize it more. Surely there will be some skeptics, which is fine. But maybe he doesn't want to disrespect Moe's name? I really don't know, though like Brian I think said, lots of people are marketing dead golfers these days. (I'm not saying it's all bad)
Me, I have a hard time believing that the most dedicated golfers did (and do) not work really hard on their mental skills as well. Were they gifted? For sure. But that didn't stop them from spending hours practicing. I guess that was (and is) mostly purposeful, and not just for fun, or whatever.
Moe knew what he was doing w a golf club too, for sure, but Carey's is an interesting claim nonetheless. It isn't something I have heard anywhere else. Anyone can take it as they wish, though I think there's "something" to his work anyway.
Not much is known about Moe overall though. To my knowledge, he didn't write a book, didn't write articles, didn't even describe his swing very much. He was too busy performing, maybe. And I think he only opened up to select people who he trusted.
On "earworms", I don't know, but Carey advises distracting (you said that, but said "disengaging" too) the conscious mind. "Clear" (clarity), not "empty" (absence of conscious thought). In his book, it isn't so much about getting it stuck in your head, moreso about filling/distracting your conscious mind during execution of a shot. (some seconds)
But you have to have firm habits built first. (he advises the "32 ball drill"- 8 sets of 4, alternating "manual and automatic") And it helps to know what to habitualize, for sure.
I'm sorry if I blab on. Good topic. And people need relief (or at least helpful options) from all the nonsense.
Earworms ahhh!!
Last edited:
S
SteveT
Guest
WTH...!!!!!!!!!!
I see ball
I see target
I hold club
I stand to ball
I swing back
I swing down
I hit ball
Ball goes high
Ball goes far
I walk to ball
I repeat above
I see ball on green
I tap ball
Ball rolls into hole
I no think science
I no think feel
I only think 'fun'.....
(To do the above with a modicum of success, you must practice properly and a lot.. a lot.)
I see ball
I see target
I hold club
I stand to ball
I swing back
I swing down
I hit ball
Ball goes high
Ball goes far
I walk to ball
I repeat above
I see ball on green
I tap ball
Ball rolls into hole
I no think science
I no think feel
I only think 'fun'.....
(To do the above with a modicum of success, you must practice properly and a lot.. a lot.
)
Last edited:
birdie_man
New
A good little article here:
http://clearkeygolf.com/TargetsToGo.pdf
Hope this is ok, Brian tends to cover the physical and teaching side more than the mental game.
http://clearkeygolf.com/TargetsToGo.pdf
Hope this is ok, Brian tends to cover the physical and teaching side more than the mental game.
birdie_man
New
Hehe. Nothing wrong w doing it your own way.
I have some ideas too.
I tend to cater to my OC more than I should anyway, I think.
Ya man, fun is good.
I have some ideas too.
I tend to cater to my OC more than I should anyway, I think.
Ya man, fun is good.
S
SteveT
Guest
Yup.... when the paralysis of analysis clashes with scientific shit .... you get torture on the fairways...!!!
DON'T 'THINK'... "DO"...
DON'T 'THINK'... "DO"...
- Status