The Old Ball Flight Laws

Status
Not open for further replies.
jdswets - Practical Golf is definitely written more at the level of underlying principles. Although IIRC, it does describe the evolution of a hooker's pattern in similar terms to NHA. You would need to extrapolate that bit further though to get concrete strategies for tackling different fault patterns. Golf Doctor is much more targeted at providing specific improvement strategies for particular issues.

Study both books (plus either Search for the Perfect Swing or the Physics of Golf) and I'm not saying you'd come up with NHA - but you'll have a great framework within which to understand and evaluate different patterns, whether NHA or others, and indeed the various teachers that have left you feeling embittered.

So far as Trackman's concerned, ain't we in violent agreement? Great tool, but marketing material that needs to be taken with a pinch of salt?

All I would add is that, right now, trackman access is going to be somewhat expensive if you want to use it as a practice aid. And to the extent that, with a bit of thoughtful analysis, you can get most (if not all) of the feedback that you need from ballflight - either on the course or anywhere where you can watch the flight of the ball - I'm going to save my pennies for now (though I'd be saving hard to buy one if I was a teaching pro).

But, good as it is, presumably you didn't need trackman data to tell you that that NHA might help you - or to make use of the pattern.
 
Last edited:
What Brian does better than any golf instructor is placing things in context. The years, the books, the culprits are all summarized in a way that you can understand the timeline of all the disinformation.

This ability also spills over to his teaching. I know almost as much as Brian about golf swing mechanics, but he can look at the big picture of the student's swing and quickly determine where and how to start the upgrading process.

The last two 6 minute videos he's posted are worth more than 100 posts.
 
Perhaps I should have picked a different topic for my first post :eek: YIKES!
I'm surprised at what seemed to be an overly defensive position in Brian's video response. I said from the beginning that my post was not directed at Brian. I just wanted to share some historical facts. I never doubted that the "old" ball flight laws came from SOMEWHERE. But I didn't know where, since I had never seen them in any of my PGA materials or any of the other important books that I have studied. And Brian explained where they did come from. I just wanted to point out that the correct relationship of face to path, responsible for start direction, has been in the PGA Teaching Manual for 20 years. And in "The Search For The Perfect Swing" for 42 years. That's it. PERIOD.

And as far as TrackMan, I love it. I've worked with it. I want to own it. Fredrick is a brilliant man. And as I said, he is contributing MUCH to the teaching/club-fitting community. But he presents a notion that the teaching community has been operating under the premise that start line is dictated solely by path. Sorry, but any pro operating under that assumption simply hasn't done their homework. But since I know that Brian knew this, I wasn't pointing at him.

They say that you have to pick your battles, and beleive me, this is not a "priority" battle for me. I'd like to move on. I just wanted to present a few facts that folks might not be aware of. I'd hate to think that that kind of thing is unwelcome here.
 

ggsjpc

New
I can tell everyone this. I went through the PGA "Brand New" training program in the 90's with the new book. However, what we were taught about ball flight was not in the book. It was straight path then face. In fact, I brought up the opposite view based on my observations and was beaten back. Hard for a young apprentice not to believe what the PGA is telling you.

Really, made me mad when I confirmed the truth that I felt for many years.
 

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Perhaps I should have picked a different topic for my first post :eek: YIKES!
I'm surprised at what seemed to be an overly defensive position in Brian's video response. I said from the beginning that my post was not directed at Brian. I just wanted to share some historical facts. I never doubted that the "old" ball flight laws came from SOMEWHERE. But I didn't know where, since I had never seen them in any of my PGA materials or any of the other important books that I have studied. And Brian explained where they did come from. I just wanted to point out that the correct relationship of face to path, responsible for start direction, has been in the PGA Teaching Manual for 20 years. And in "The Search For The Perfect Swing" for 42 years. That's it. PERIOD.

And as far as TrackMan, I love it. I've worked with it. I want to own it. Fredrick is a brilliant man. And as I said, he is contributing MUCH to the teaching/club-fitting community. But he presents a notion that the teaching community has been operating under the premise that start line is dictated solely by path. Sorry, but any pro operating under that assumption simply hasn't done their homework. But since I know that Brian knew this, I wasn't pointing at him.

They say that you have to pick your battles, and beleive me, this is not a "priority" battle for me. I'd like to move on. I just wanted to present a few facts that folks might not be aware of. I'd hate to think that that kind of thing is unwelcome here.

Todd, do you think you are the only guy who has been 'around the block' thousands of times giving lessons? Myself, Brian and another hundred instructors on this site have seen, heard, read,researched and attended teaching summits etc. with all the good and BS information out there to help us get 'real' results for our students. Why does it seem we are soo in love with the measuring skills of trackman?

Because we are!!!

We are not being paid off by anyone. We know this a) vailidates our lessons and makes them measurable, b) substanciates our knowledge base and clears the fog, c) blows up junk science that exists. Theodore Jorgenson is the real guy we should be thanking and all that Trackman does or the next greatest measuring tool company does is validate it by making it easily measurable and gives us the ability to isolate each vector/component individually like a scientist would do in any closed experimental study.

As crazy as we all may seem here Todd, there are actually some very bright people, so with all due respect I would read a little more before posting your opinions.
 
The more I read on this site, the more I want to read on this site and the more I want to do my own research. It is an inspiring place for someone that has wanted to know the whys about the golf swing for many years. And the only hype found here is hype based on real science.

Matt
 
Todd, do you think you are the only guy who has been 'around the block' thousands of times giving lessons? Myself, Brian and another hundred instructors on this site have seen, heard, read,researched and attended teaching summits etc. with all the good and BS information out there to help us get 'real' results for our students. Why does it seem we are soo in love with the measuring skills of trackman?

Because we are!!!

We are not being paid off by anyone. We know this a) vailidates our lessons and makes them measurable, b) substanciates our knowledge base and clears the fog, c) blows up junk science that exists. Theodore Jorgenson is the real guy we should be thanking and all that Trackman does or the next greatest measuring tool company does is validate it by making it easily measurable and gives us the ability to isolate each vector/component individually like a scientist would do in any closed experimental study.

As crazy as we all may seem here Todd, there are actually some very bright people, so with all due respect I would read a little more before posting your opinions.

Steve,
Somehow you missed Todd's essential approach to all of his posts- it wasn't "you're all crazy". In fact, it leaned much more for an appreciation of this forum and a respect for it.
 
Brian is spot on here; when I attended the "old PGA Business School" back in the eighties, Toski and Flick's book was the Bible. Sad but true. But like everything else we evolve; let's not get lost in pointing fingers (when you point a finger there are three of them pointing right back at you) but let's move on with the SCIENCE that we HAVE NOW. Is that the SCIENCE we'll have in 20 years? Who knows? Galileo went to prison and died a scorned man for his "heretical" heliocentric (Copernican) theories. Whew, glad we corrected that one!
 
i should add that if the science is KNOWN and still denied, then we have a very different problem. That is called ignorance and that person has no right practicing the craft.
 
"As crazy as we all may seem here Todd, there are actually some very bright people, so with all due respect I would read a little more before posting your opinions."

Steve may be an academy instructor, but this is just really arrogant. This kind of statement will drive people away. It is a forum, isn't it?
 

ZAP

New
I think a big part of the problem with forums in general is the fact that you cannot "hear" the tone of the post. All you can do is infer it from the words. Since we are all from different parts of the globe the use of words varies. It is not always easy to decide how to make a point either without writing a book.
I also do not see Brian's response as defensive and I do not think he viewed the original post as a personal attack. Brian was simply clarifying his position as clearly as he could.
As he always does when there seems to be a question about what he thinks.
 

ej20

New
I have also read many many years ago that the ball starts between where the face points and the path.I also remember that article saying that the higher the clubhead speed gets,the more it will favor the path.For example,putting will have the ball start off much more where the face points than the path but with the driver,the face will have less influence.
 
Todd,

Can you share your thoughts on the relevance of the D-plane?

Sure. The D-plane is simply the 3-D plane formed by the intersecting vectors of the direction of the clubhead and the normal to the clubface, at impact.

Clubhead path and clubface angle are chief determiners of ball flight. So they are extremely relevant. Honestly, I don't introduce the term "D-plane" with my students. But I spend time making sure that they understand how clubhead path and clubface angle influence the ball's flight.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I dont know why people are reacting like this to Todd's posts. Its not the fall in line forum. If you believe that, thats just silly. I guess his post came across wrong. I dont find anything wrong with it. brian cleared up what may have been mistaken, so whats the big deal?
 

Ryan Smither

Super Moderator
I dont know why people are reacting like this to Todd's posts. Its not the fall in line forum. If you believe that, thats just silly. I guess his post came across wrong. I dont find anything wrong with it. brian cleared up what may have been mistaken, so whats the big deal?

I agree. Welcome, Todd.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top