The Old Ball Flight Laws

[Todd Dugan]

Todd, wouldn't axis tilt be a very common condition that causes low point to differ from when shaft lean would predict?

Axis tilt is VERY common, ha ha, but refers to the ball's sidespin. I don't think that relevant here, MJ.

All I'm saying is that in a properly constructed "golfing machine", if you will, then as the clubshaft swings on an inclined plane through the impact zone, then the "lean" of the shaft (and let's assume for simplicity that it can not bend), relative to the plane's baseline, will indicate the attack angle. And so, the "machine" SHOULD deliver the same clubface orientation, relative to the clubhead's direction (spin loft), regardless of WHERE on the plane impact is made. I've actaully presented this to a couple of the guys at TrackMan, but never got confirmation. It seems scientifically sound to me.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Todd, he's referring to spine axis tilt.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Todd, he's referring to spine axis tilt.

away from the ball, just to continue the clarification lol

 

[Brian Manzella]

Geezamwillikers!!!

All I'm saying is that in a properly constructed "golfing machine", if you will, then as the clubshaft swings on an inclined plane through the impact zone, then the "lean" of the shaft (and let's assume for simplicity that it can not bend), relative to the plane's baseline, will indicate the attack angle.

I don't know how to say this any other way—

No.

This is incorrect.

This is totally baseless.

It isn't right.

Would you like me to explain?

Whew!

 

[mjstrong]

Todd,

I was referring to spine axis tilt; should have been more clear.

I know what you're saying, and on paper, it can make sense. However, it IS incorrect. The clubhead can be travelling upwards post-impact while the shaft is still leaning forward, if even slightly.

If the golf swing was a one-fulcrum pendulum, you would be right...

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I don't know how to say this any other way—

No.

This is incorrect.

This is totally baseless.

It isn't right.

Would you like me to explain?

Whew!

Where's that post of that swing you posted where you were hitting a wood off the ground with a bunch of lean and the attack angle was almost level from trackman?

 

[savydan]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z_K1CKDk6k[/media]

 

[Todd Dugan]

Todd,

I was referring to spine axis tilt; should have been more clear.

I know what you're saying, and on paper, it can make sense. However, it IS incorrect. The clubhead can be travelling upwards post-impact while the shaft is still leaning forward, if even slightly.

If the golf swing was a one-fulcrum pendulum, you would be right...

Ah, SPINE axis tilt. Still don't see the relevance, though.

As I said, it CAN happen, but it SHOULDN'T, in a "good" swing.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Where's that post of that swing you posted where you were hitting a wood off the ground with a bunch of lean and the attack angle was almost level from trackman?

The shaft APPEARS to be leaning forward at impact, but the shaft is BENT, or BENDING, head closer to target than butt, resulting in the clubhead not descending at impact as much as hand position at impact would otherwise indicate. That's why I said to assume that shaft could not bend.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I don't know how to say this any other way—

No.

This is incorrect.

This is totally baseless.

It isn't right.

Would you like me to explain?

Whew!

Yes, I would be interested to hear your explanation, Brian. But realize that what I termed a "properly assembled machine" is just MY opinion of what a good swing is. I certainly realize that, for example, it is easy to hit a putt on the upswing, but with forward shaft lean at impact. But in a full power swing, that technique would be far from "good".

 

[spktho]

But in a full power swing, that technique would be far from "good".

Driver too?

 

[mjstrong]

Ah, SPINE axis tilt. Still don't see the relevance, though.

As I said, it CAN happen, but it SHOULDN'T, in a "good" swing.

Ok, why not?

 

[Todd Dugan]

Ok, why not?

I guess the easiest way to say it is that I don't think that the center of the circle should be raising or lowering during impact. But hey, I'm not a scientist

Here are some excerpts from an interview with TracMan CEO, Fredrick Tuxen, which prove that a least with a GIVEN player/swing/club, the spin loft applied to the ball is not easily changed.......

Have you found any discoveries during your investigations of attack angle?

Yes! It turns out that if you hit down or up on the ball with the same club, the spin rate will be more or less identical if you impact the ball on the same spot on the face. This is in contradiction to the myth saying that hitting down on the ball increases the spin rate.

Are you saying that hitting down on the ball has no impact on the spin rate? That sounds very surprising…

Yes, actually you do not change the spin rate by hitting more down or up on the ball with the same club, assuming that the ball is impacted on the same spot on the face. Simplified slightly, the cor¬relations are: Attack angle changes the launch angle, with club loft, including shaft flex, changing the spin rate.
When you hit more up on the ball, the launch angle will be higher but the spin rate will be virtually the same. The spin rate is dictated primarily by the spin loft and impact position on the club face. The spin loft is the difference between the dynamic loft and the attack angle. The spin loft is virtually constant for a given club. Of course, also the ball and club characteristics play an important role in the generation of spin.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The shaft APPEARS to be leaning forward at impact, but the shaft is BENT, or BENDING, head closer to target than butt, resulting in the clubhead not descending at impact as much as hand position at impact would otherwise indicate. That's why I said to assume that shaft could not bend.

Todd with all due respect, that part in bold is like saying if the Bulls had Lebron...it doesn't matter because shafts do bend in the golf swing and the head will always bend foward whether you are using an iron or a wood; if you see any picture of a shaft bend the other way it is due to a combination of contacting the ball and creating a divot but make no mistake when it contacts the ball it is bending forward.

You will still have lean angle (measured) with a shaft "kicking" forward. Most of the best players on tour have a whole bunch of lean with very little down as brian demonstrates in the video i discussed.

 

[Brian Manzella]

No, no, & NO!!!

I guess the easiest way to say it is that I don't think that the center of the circle should be raising or lowering during impact. But hey, I'm not a scientist

I am so sorry you are this far off in your view of the swing.

But, WOW! are you far off.

There is no center in ANY good golf swing. None.

"Instantaneous Helical Axis," is what the best biomechanists call it.

As far as the circle goes, it moves from WAY IN THE GROUND to almost all of the way out of it.

With ANY #4 accumulator angle (left arm across the chest) at all, the left shoulder will never be low point.

The shaft lean variant, can be arranged to produce low point all over the place.

I don't know what else to say other than you appear not to be listening.

Here are some excerpts from an interview with TracMan CEO, Fredrick Tuxen, which prove that a least with a GIVEN player/swing/club, the spin loft applied to the ball is not easily changed.......

Not easy for someone that doesn't know how to teach. Easy for me to get YOU to change it. EASY!

Geez.

What is your REAL agenda?

Did you get a bad scouting report on me?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z_K1CKDk6k[/media]

savydan FTW!

 

[Todd Dugan]

I am so sorry you are this far off in your view of the swing.

But, WOW! are you far off.

There is no center in ANY good golf swing. None.

"Instantaneous Helical Axis," is what the best biomechanists call it.

As far as the circle goes, it moves from WAY IN THE GROUND to almost all of the way out of it.

With ANY #4 accumulator angle (left arm across the chest) at all, the left shoulder will never be low point.

The shaft lean variant, can be arranged to produce low point all over the place.

I don't know what else to say other than you appear not to be listening.




Not easy for someone that doesn't know how to teach. Easy for me to get YOU to change it. EASY!

Geez.

What is your REAL agenda?

Did you get a bad scouting report on me?

No, just trying to have a nice, respectful discussion of club delivery conditions.

O.K., so if a player's attack angle is ideal for a given club/ball speed, how do you determine if more or less spin loft, the main determiner of spin rate, should be achieved?

If you determine that less spin loft should be applied at impact, how would you teach the player to achieve this without changing the already ideal attack angle?

 

[Todd Dugan]

The previous post is a legitimate question of interest for me. No hidden agenda. Not trying to hurt anyone. No, as I said, the reason I came here is because I was impressed by a few of Brian's videos I had come across. I was hoping that this forum would be a place where I could engage in open discussions of the golf stroke. I feel that my motives have been mis-represented and frankly, I haven't enjoyed most of my reception here.
Most important to me is that I feel that the record shows that I was polite and professional throughout. I'm moving on.

 

[dannyc]

The previous post is a legitimate question of interest for me. No hidden agenda. Not trying to hurt anyone. No, as I said, the reason I came here is because I was impressed by a few of Brian's videos I had come across. I was hoping that this forum would be a place where I could engage in open discussions of the golf stroke. I feel that my motives have been mis-represented and frankly, I haven't enjoyed most of my reception here.
Most important to me is that I feel that the record shows that I was polite and professional throughout. I'm moving on.

i agree, it's a legit question. this forum is the BEST place to learn and discuss the golf swing. i am sorry you don't feel like you are welcome here. you may or may not know this, but the host is used to being attacked by "new" members with agendas, from time to time. i've seen it happen.

 

[mjstrong]

The previous post is a legitimate question of interest for me. No hidden agenda. Not trying to hurt anyone. No, as I said, the reason I came here is because I was impressed by a few of Brian's videos I had come across. I was hoping that this forum would be a place where I could engage in open discussions of the golf stroke. I feel that my motives have been mis-represented and frankly, I haven't enjoyed most of my reception here.
Most important to me is that I feel that the record shows that I was polite and professional throughout. I'm moving on.

Todd, I hope none of my questions/responses have come across as unwelcoming...

There are many individuals here that enjoy debate, and there are many whom are quick to defend Brian, as he has been the target of some posters who seem to want to discredit his findings.

I think that the way you've introduced yourself and posted your ideas on here will earn you the respect of most of the readers. I'd encourage you to stick around and learn/contribute alongside the rest of us.