The Out Toss

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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Since it's such a hot topic lately, I'd like to throw out my personal take on it.

In August, I played really well, emphasis on PLAYED, at our State Open. I shot 70-69-66 to finish one short of our friend Mark Sheftic (Congrats again, by the way). However, ballflight was floaty at times, and I couldn't turn it over to save my children. The last day, I had to hang back on 17 so bad to make sure it didn't work away from the dogleg I almost fell over. Anyway, like I said, I played well. Being 40 has its advantages in that you learn to get it around pretty well when you're not particularly sharp.

I had a few weeks before I had to play in another big event, the Nationwide Mylan Classic at Southpointe, a heavily draw bias golf course.

The Monday of the event, I called Brian. I said something like, "Brian, I'm about to play in front of hundreds of people on a course that favors a draw on 15 holes. And I can't f$@%^#g turn it over on a bet!". Divots were steepish and long and I felt like I was holding on thru impact.

He said, "You're going to have to find a way to isolate the feel of the clubhead from the top. You may even try to TOSS it wider and behind you before you tug on it". And that was it. It can be told like it is.

So that feel alone allowed me to draw it at will, STORE LAG for later use, get the club past my left wrist after impact, and basically play really well on a demanding ball strikers course. I hit the prettiest friggin little draw to a back left pin on my 36th hole to make birdie to make the cut by two. Loved it.

So the moral is, it isn't for everybody, but it's for plenty of golfers. The feel of it can morph into a complete tumble of the club over the hands before you get a chance to lag it open. So there's teaching and then there's guessing at what you think you may know or see. The more tools you have in the box the more golfers you can help and help faster, I might add.

Just sayin'
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Here is a combo drill....out and down toss with tumble.

It is just a feel folks....:)

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/36869055?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
 
Principle: Don't allow the club to lock up during the DS.

Drills to fix this problem: There are many; some golfers need toss from the start, some at the bottom, some not at all. Out-toss is not for everyone.

Got it.

Any regrets about making out-toss a part of the 'New Ideas...' video? Would you do it with a general 'toss' idea if you were re-making?

I happened to find the 'going normal' stuff much more useful for my own game, but credit the whole video with free-ing up my swing and my game generally; in fact I think I finally got rid of almost all the SLOC BS from my mind thanks to the video. It has taken years!

Two big takeaways for me: 1) the hands move away from the target at the top 2) the left shoulder moves away from the target down in the impact area. Hope I have that right.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Our continuing research (we have been on phone calls with multiple scientists the last few days and have a big research trip planned for the 28 & 29th of the month) is showing the "tug" to be more important than ANYONE thought.

When Ideas 2.0 is filmed, the anti-tug will be a chapter.

That drill didn't hurt Tiger, huh?
 

natep

New
That whole Tiger/Butch video clip is pretty good, and Tiger explains the feel of the drill, how he has to feel like his arms are out-racing his body on the downswing. Good stuff.
 
Here is a combo drill....out and down toss with tumble.

It is just a feel folks....:)

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/36869055?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

Yup. But you can tumble with lots of body turn, too. Either way, its good stuff for the "over-lagging under-planer". But for every one of those, I see about 50 "over-the-top flippers".
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Yup. But you can tumble with lots of body turn, too. Either way, its good stuff for the "over-lagging under-planer". But for every one of those, I see about 50 "over-the-top flippers".

I used to as well.

Not so much anymore.

There are handle-draggers out there folks....
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Yup. But you can tumble with lots of body turn, too. Either way, its good stuff for the "over-lagging under-planer". But for every one of those, I see about 50 "over-the-top flippers".

It's good for over the top flippers as well. Those people have no tumble, they only know how to uncock their left wrists into the ball. That's the real reason they come over the top. Hands to the ball, uncock the left wrist.

No one has ever flipped when the clubhead is going over the hands. Whether you are dragging the club under plane or uncocking the club under....under is under.
 
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To me the out toss opened my eyes. I never thought of starting my hands away from the target but it is so obvious when you think about it. Another thing I like about the out toss is the idea of setting an intend (of releasing my hands) early rather then thinking that somewhere halfway down the swing you can suddenly react to something consciously. The out toss also enabled me to draw my driver which I was never able to do before. With the direction of the out toss I can now hit fades or draws.
 
The out toss delivers in numerous ways. It is tough to do when your arm swing is not in sync with your shoulder turn. My inability to do it alerted me to the fact that my hands and arms were behind me, as opposed to in front of me. So, I shortened my arm swing in order to keep the club more outside my hands. The added bonus was that it is a whole lot easier to tumble the club from there. Too many amateurs reach back behind them to increase the arc of the swing and consequently the clubhead gets behind them...from there a tug seems to be a logical move.


I am drawing inspiration from this great move. His hands and arms don't write checks that his shoulder turn cannot cash.
I have watched him in person...he kills it...assassin-like efficiency, don't you think?

John Rollins - YouTube
 
S

SteveT

Guest
"Out Toss" is a fascinating concept, but I would prefer a kinetic analysis which means how the forces are applied through the approach and into reversal to do it. Trying to envisage it using only words and feel is problematic for me. Oh well...
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
"Out Toss" is a fascinating concept, but I would prefer a kinetic analysis which means how the forces are applied through the approach and into reversal to do it. Trying to envisage it using only words and feel is problematic for me. Oh well...

We have a research trip on February 28 & 29.

We will have an answer on what the tug is and ins't that WILL please you Steve.

Stay tuned.
 

Erik_K

New
Kevin -

What exactly does hands to the ball mean? For a right handed golfer, does this mean right shoulder is going out and not tracking down? I know if I want to hit the inside of the ball, the feeling of the "right" working under the "left" is (at least somewhat) desirable. When the right shoulder works "over" the left, that may be more of a fade move.

Or maybe the hands to the ball means something totally different...

Erik

It's good for over the top flippers as well. Those people have no tumble, they only know how to uncock their left wrists into the ball. That's the real reason they come over the top. Hands to the ball, uncock the left wrist.

No one has ever flipped when the clubhead is going over the hands. Whether you are dragging the club under plane or uncocking the club under....under is under.
 
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