The Hammer
New member
Bill Mehlhorn taught Sam Byrd to stop his hips at impact if he wanted to hit it farther. Maybe Bill was on to something that until now can be proven to work.
The Passive Pivot of the Lower Body
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
- Status
Bill Mehlhorn taught Sam Byrd to stop his hips at impact if he wanted to hit it farther. Maybe Bill was on to something that until now can be proven to work.
I bet only about 30% of that distance comes from the hips/pivot....
Disagreement, disagreement.......
The pivot can create some speed but the arms/hands much more (especially THE HANDS)....
Swing the club using just your arms and hands, no shoulders, no pivot....
You can get then up to a fair speed,
Then add your pivot...
How much faster does the club go?........be honest now...
The Hammer
New member
The Hammer
It always remains interesting this ongoing debate to decide if the golf swing is done either from the inside-out or from the outside-in - or formulated slightly differently - the swing is it a bottom-up or a top-down action?
The fascinating thing about golf is that every time that someone comes to a definite conclusion, one always can find another plausible source stating just the opposite. Lee Treevino, not all that bad a ball striker has made the comment that “Golf is a game entirely played below the waist.”
I take in beans from the outside in and I pass gas from the inside out.
Deadly_Scope
New
The truth of mechanics never lie but lies can help create 'better' mechanics. Even at tour level many operate their strokes around multiple falsehoods that produce better mechanics for them. It is not that they are quick fixes either as they will consistantly produce these 'better' mechanics for them but they will reach a plateau and the golfer will furthermore treat these thoughts as truths when they will not actually be so.
Disagreement, disagreement.......
The pivot can create some speed but the arms/hands much more (especially THE HANDS)....
Swing the club using just your arms and hands, no shoulders, no pivot....
You can get then up to a fair speed,
Then add your pivot...
How much faster does the club go?........be honest now...
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I suppose.
And swinging without shoulders or pivot, the club moves MUCH SLOWER for me than a full swing with a pivot does. I'm still not sure where you're getting this idea from.
I'd like to hear your answers from the last part of my post you quoted. What do you do if you want to knock someone out vs. hitting them square in the eye?
Disagreement, disagreement.......
The pivot can create some speed but the arms/hands much more (especially THE HANDS)....
Swing the club using just your arms and hands, no shoulders, no pivot....
You can get then up to a fair speed,
Then add your pivot...
How much faster does the club go?........be honest now...
Velocity squared X Mass you don't have power unless this equation fits.
If your focus is more on the hands and arms then i suggest buying a Jim Flick or Bob Toski book. I prefer to listen to teachers who play a greater importance on the pivot. Horses for courses.
Hang on you two..
My comments were in response to a statement made..(check post #24)....
Let's keep to the subject eh......
Golfer24, I'm not negating the pivot, just straightening out a misconception....
Holeout, if your club is moving MUCH slower when using the arms, you simply aren't trying hard enough.....we're not talking about making a true golfswing here, just getting your arms up to max speed...
My comments were in response to a statement made..(check post #24)....
Let's keep to the subject eh......
Golfer24, I'm not negating the pivot, just straightening out a misconception....
Holeout, if your club is moving MUCH slower when using the arms, you simply aren't trying hard enough.....we're not talking about making a true golfswing here, just getting your arms up to max speed...
Disagreement, disagreement.......
The pivot can create some speed but the arms/hands much more (especially THE HANDS)....
Swing the club using just your arms and hands, no shoulders, no pivot....
You can get then up to a fair speed,
Then add your pivot...
How much faster does the club go?........be honest now...
puttmad, i simply cannot believe you think this to be true. i'll tell a story then give my opinion, in a thread i have tried to not post in because i thought that sense would prevail. obviously not ...
there was a young Australian lad, around 19/20. he had played Aussie Rules and rugby to a high level, and was very physically strong in his upper and in his legs (thighs, quads and calfs).
he took up golf and had a lesson or two to learn the grip, set up and what not. he then proceded to play golf by using his big muscles to throw his arms around. he had no regard for where his arms went as long as his body pivot threw his arms on the ball.
call pure pivot controlled hands, pure swinging or whatever, he did not have any regard for where his arms and hands went and did. all they did, as far as he was concerned, were holding on to the grip and being "schlung"
he would hit 6 irons around 190-200. and this is about 10 yrs ago.
but the ball went anywere. he then had to create some other movements just to control where the ball was going. as a result he lost the efficiency from his pivot and big strong muscles. he ended up with very undesireable mechanics and hit it much shorter.
he then had a lesson with a very good teacher who trained him (i imagine) to monitor his hands and arms. he was then able to utilise his strengths (his physical strength), hit the ball as far as he used to, with control.
so after all that, whats my point. the pivot is the strongest part of your of body, with regards to golf. the reason you say "go throw a ball, and see where the speed comes from" that is because we all know how to throw a ball and dont have to think about the pivot. so we dont realise how much speed is being created by our pivot.
i was watching the olympics the other day and Steve Redgrave, Britains greatest ever Olympian with 5 Golds from 5 Olympics talking about rowing technique. he demonstrated having a bent arm when pulling the orr is week, as then you have to use arm/bicep strength. with a straight arm you can utilise the strength in your legs. now i know theres obviously differences between rowing and golf, but its a clear demonstration that legs and stomach muscles are much stronger and can produce more power than the hands and arms, without even starting to consider snapping then chain.
if you have a totally hand dominated stroke, imo, you will never, ever ever ever ever ever ever ever hit it as far as you could.
you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever hit it as far as you could if you lower actually have a 'passive' lower body/whole body pivot.
Chris Sturgess
New member
I like how evidence like this gets ignored by people who biasedly choose to ignore it. So Hammer and anyone else, do you actually think these guys would've played better if their lower body's weren't so active?
They are probably the 3 best players ever. Tough to argue against what they do.
You know who has a very passive pivot? Every hacker. Evidence is not looking good for the passive pivot.
Why won't you answer my questions?
mandrin
New
what goes around comes around
What else is new?
Hitting a against a solid left side.
What else is new?
self-mastery
New
You are invisible, but I have the misfortune of being able to see your posts.
...
Because it is a stupid question with not much relevance to golf..i.e. there is no wrist action.....
Because it is a stupid question with not much relevance to golf..i.e. there is no wrist action.....
The Hammer
New member
puttmad, i simply cannot believe you think this to be true. i'll tell a story then give my opinion, in a thread i have tried to not post in because i thought that sense would prevail. obviously not ...
there was a young Australian lad, around 19/20. he had played Aussie Rules and rugby to a high level, and was very physically strong in his upper and in his legs (thighs, quads and calfs).
he took up golf and had a lesson or two to learn the grip, set up and what not. he then proceded to play golf by using his big muscles to throw his arms around. he had no regard for where his arms went as long as his body pivot threw his arms on the ball.
call pure pivot controlled hands, pure swinging or whatever, he did not have any regard for where his arms and hands went and did. all they did, as far as he was concerned, were holding on to the grip and being "schlung"
he would hit 6 irons around 190-200. and this is about 10 yrs ago.
but the ball went anywere. he then had to create some other movements just to control where the ball was going. as a result he lost the efficiency from his pivot and big strong muscles. he ended up with very undesireable mechanics and hit it much shorter.
he then had a lesson with a very good teacher who trained him (i imagine) to monitor his hands and arms. he was then able to utilise his strengths (his physical strength), hit the ball as far as he used to, with control.
so after all that, whats my point. the pivot is the strongest part of your of body, with regards to golf. the reason you say "go throw a ball, and see where the speed comes from" that is because we all know how to throw a ball and dont have to think about the pivot. so we dont realise how much speed is being created by our pivot.
i was watching the olympics the other day and Steve Redgrave, Britains greatest ever Olympian with 5 Golds from 5 Olympics talking about rowing technique. he demonstrated having a bent arm when pulling the orr is week, as then you have to use arm/bicep strength. with a straight arm you can utilise the strength in your legs. now i know theres obviously differences between rowing and golf, but its a clear demonstration that legs and stomach muscles are much stronger and can produce more power than the hands and arms, without even starting to consider snapping then chain.
if you have a totally hand dominated stroke, imo, you will never, ever ever ever ever ever ever ever hit it as far as you could.
you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever hit it as far as you could if you lower actually have a 'passive' lower body/whole body pivot.
I don’t know how much Aussie Rules football you have seen but there are a lot of hands, arms and upper body going on. I don’t think you got the whole story on this guy. Rowing is linear. I have a good friend who is a top rower. I call him linear man. Linear movement is the power in the lower body not rotational which is used in golf. Now paddling like in the 4 man kayak is closer to golf and it is hands, arms and upper body.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Mathew!
So true.
"Even at tour level many operate their strokes around multiple falsehoods that produce better mechanics for them. It is not that they are quick fixes either as they will consistantly produce these 'better' mechanics for them but they will reach a plateau and the golfer will furthermore treat these thoughts as truths when they will not actually be so" —Mathew (Deady Scope)
So true.
No wrist action? I just lol'd.
Honestly dude, I just think you're being naive to think that the pivot doesn't supply a massively large amount of power and speed to the golf swing. If you want to disagree, fine. I simply think you're looking at it the wrong way; just because the hand and arm are moving the fastest, doesn't mean they are providing that speed all on their own.
Let's just not let this get unruly. I like most of what you have to say, but on this one I think you're a bit off
.
The Hammer
New member
Sweet Spot Contact is #1
I say again a more passive pivot is a correct pivot which produces more accurate impact. This alone will produce more distance with the contact on the sweet spot more often.
An incorrect pivot or no pivot at all is what you see from hackers. Hackers need to learn to hit the ball on the sweet spot and an aggressive pivot is not the answer.
A correct more passive pivot is the answer and is powerful by producing more hits on the sweet spot but it is not the main power in the golf swing.
"When a golf club is moved, there is no visible information as to the cause of the movement—you cannot discern what is really going on just from watching. In golf, perhaps more than in any other sport, knowing the difference in what exertions to use actively and what actions are more passive is enormously important in hitting the ball with the sweet spot of the club head!"
John W Rohan-Weaver G.S.E.M. "The Hammer"
I say again a more passive pivot is a correct pivot which produces more accurate impact. This alone will produce more distance with the contact on the sweet spot more often.
An incorrect pivot or no pivot at all is what you see from hackers. Hackers need to learn to hit the ball on the sweet spot and an aggressive pivot is not the answer.
A correct more passive pivot is the answer and is powerful by producing more hits on the sweet spot but it is not the main power in the golf swing.
"When a golf club is moved, there is no visible information as to the cause of the movement—you cannot discern what is really going on just from watching. In golf, perhaps more than in any other sport, knowing the difference in what exertions to use actively and what actions are more passive is enormously important in hitting the ball with the sweet spot of the club head!"
John W Rohan-Weaver G.S.E.M. "The Hammer"
tourdeep
New
It's somewhat silly to think how far we can hit the ball on a chair since I have never seen anyone play a round of golf sitting on a chair. Ok yes, in a wheel chair. (not being mean, but it should be disallowed). But I get the point.
Well, it does make sense the less moving parts, the more accurate one may be. My putting is very accurate this way.
I think i can kick a soccer ball a lot farther than i can throw it. I think i can throw a golf ball further than I can kick it. But I am pretty sure I can hit a golf ball further using the forces from the ground, the lower body, and upper body. There's a little bit coming from here and there which adds to power. Lower side, upper side, they coexist for 99% of the golfers.
ummm, from a general perspective, yes, we all are very similar to Tiger.
I can argue the more hand and arm involvement, the less accuracy, but i won't.
Pivot obsession by the weekend warrior is very limiting. It's a whole bunch of mistimed components that adds up to the hack.
Hmmm, Is M.A. shifting in his grave?
I will agree the MAJOR power source for hitting a golf ball is not from the lower side. Is it the trail shoulder, maybe? But the timing of all elements, and depending on the individual, may need to strengthen the link which diverts from power and accuracy.
- Status