there's a picture out there that is being touted....

[golfdad]

not sure if this pic series will add to the discussion:

note that the lag deflection observed here imo should be AFTER impact.

i cannot see clearly the shaft in mr finney's pic. (even though brian used a red line to trace it)


[media]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3K9M21eCcRw/Sm8PfUnWR4I/AAAAAAAAAek/QLjHUvAO2Bw/s1600-h/nelson.jpg[/media]

opps, too bad, it does not show up. anyway, there was a pic of byron swinging down, imo, passed the impact position, with a lag deflection.

 

[dbl]

There are tons of crazy looking old photos where the clubhead is not where we think it ought to be, and the shaft is crazy looking also.

The OP's pic and Golfdad's can be explained if the shutter in the camera operated by closing (effectively) the bottom of the image first and then went up.

Note: Of course, inside the camera the image on the film is upside down, so the opposite shutter action would actually be happening.

I understand in older cameras, the shutter operated horizontally, so for this pic the camera operator would be holding the camera at 90 degrees and, whether that was to the right or to the left would produce two different crazy pictures.

 

[duckjr78]

dbl is correct. Older cameras had shutters that operated at speeds and directions that weren't conducive to producing an accurate image of a golfer at impact.

Look at every swing sequence in Goof Digest for the last 5 years or more and you will see the opposite of the Nelson pic. Even the swing sequence of Mickelson hitting an iron show a definate forward bend of the shaft at impact.

BTW, somehow, Hogan knew this when he wrote "Power Golf." I wonder how he figured it out?

 

[ej20]

The only cameras that captured an entire frame at the same time was the old CCD global shutter types.Old film cameras and the current CMOS rolling shutter cameras do not capture the entire frame instantly so cannot be relied upon....unless the shutter speed is extremely high.Even the current Casio range uses rolling shutters but at high speed functions the shutter speed is high enough to minimise this effect but there is still some.

 

[golfdad]

if that holds true, that brings up another interesting experiment.

use an old camera in a modern day swing lab and see what happens.

what bothers me is that usually with photo distortion, there may be other signs to go along with it: such as fuzziness, proportion distortion. op's pic does not seem to suggest that. only the lagging club

was op's pic taken out from a swing series or just this one photo?

haha, may be someone bent a club and asked him to pose for a pic!

 

[chipingguru]

 

[Ringer]

Perhaps the picture is just to represent a feel?

 

[spktho]

So, if the player could make the shaft do that, and in this case it seems as though he can, where would that ball go?

If the clubhead was that far behind, I would play him for anything......if the shaft did what we know it does, I need some shots.

Ya, the club face would be hugely open too.

I agree, a feel.

 

[Michael Finney]

Perhaps the picture is just to represent a feel?

steve, look at post #2 of this thread

to everyone else, i was not referring to the byron nelson picture specifically - i was referring to another current picture that POSED a wildy lagging clubhead at impact (with the use of very flexible dowels) - the byron nelson picture came later in the other forum's thread and was used to "back up" the relevance of the original "most important illustration in the history of golf"...

of course it's a feel - and again, the feel is not what happens in reality

in and of itself, the image is harmless and probably represents a decent feel a struggling golfer may need.....but when you get down to it, you CANNOT get there unless you hit the ball 5 inches fat

they may need to try another illustration if they want it to be ranked #1 - just saying

 

[wulsy]

dbl is correct. Older cameras had shutters that operated at speeds and directions that weren't conducive to producing an accurate image of a golfer at impact.

Look at every swing sequence in Goof Digest for the last 5 years or more and you will see the opposite of the Nelson pic. Even the swing sequence of Mickelson hitting an iron show a definate forward bend of the shaft at impact.

BTW, somehow, Hogan knew this when he wrote "Power Golf." I wonder how he figured it out?

I reckon he felt it happening ie the kick from lagging to leading.

 

[ggsjpc]

I think it could be considered a reasonable depiction of what is felt by the time a person feels it. Here's a couple pics right after impact of the same swing on an fh-20. Each showing massive changes in the shaft.

Just a thought.

<a href="http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/johngrahamgolf/?action=view&current=Screenshot2010-12-02at95345PM.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/johngrahamgolf/Screenshot2010-12-02at95345PM.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/johngrahamgolf/?action=view&current=Screenshot2010-12-02at95407PM.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/johngrahamgolf/Screenshot2010-12-02at95407PM.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

[Michael Finney]

john,

the ball and ground caused that look......not sustaining "lag pressure"

or possibly the ground then the ball

 

[chipingguru]

If he hadn't sustained the lag he wouldn't have ever gotten to that position.

 

[ggsjpc]

john,

the ball and ground caused that look......not sustaining "lag pressure"

or possibly the ground then the ball

Michael,

I know that.

I'm just saying, that feeling is justifiable.

I'm not even sure that if you attached a club to giant rotor and spun it on an inclined plane that it would lag down where the ball would be. Maybe on a horizontal plane.

I'd love to see a video of that.

I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard the produce.

 

[drewyallop]

Shaft mechanics pre and post-impact were explained in detail by the Ping scientist at the anti-summit. Clubhead and a part of the shaft deflect forward and the toe of the clubhead deflects down prior to impact. Importantly, this happens even at slow clubhead speeds. Evidence? Either a 5k or 50k fps video camera (can't remember which), i.e. not your kid's Brownie.

Brian asked if this resulted in a flattening of clubhead at impact and the answer was yes. Brian noted that this was a very important point but did not elaborate. I assume that he was thinking of the implications for fitting, teaching, D Plane. If he reads this maybe he could answer.

For me the anti-summit video makes some of the discussion of "science" here and in other threads irrelevant. The information presented at the summit is in most cases compelling. There are still questions to be answered but most of the science in TGM and other popular theories is blown out of the water. And perhaps more importantly it is presented by real scientists whose only goal is to find the facts through rigorous scientific inquiry. What most impressed me was the humility on display. These are not rabid flat-earthers defending a view absent any supportable experimental evidence. Their calm objectivity was a refreshing change from some of the discussions here.

Drew

 

[Michael Finney]

it's really simple......i've beaten this drum before

it's championed as "feel through mechancis"

when it's actually "feels through other feels"

if something is going to be touted as the "greatest illustration in the history of golf" it should at least be based on something that could happen - not a POSED FEEL

that's my opinion, brian can ban me if he wants to - jeff mann and i can go post on freegolfinfo.com

 

[duckjr78]

So on a downward strike into the ground with an iron, the shaft flexes targetward before impact, the ground then causes backward deflection, and then just post-impact, the shaft returns to flexion targetward? Wow, I had no idea that much was going on.

And I agree with Kevin. The supposed "Most important illustration in the history of golf" should be something that is actually happening.

 

[Ringer]

So on a downward strike into the ground with an iron, the shaft flexes targetward before impact, the ground then causes backward deflection, and then just post-impact, the shaft returns to flexion targetward? Wow, I had no idea that much was going on.

And I agree with Kevin. The supposed "Most important illustration in the history of golf" should be something that is actually happening.

The shaft is acting like a spring. At impact with the ground the clubhead is being held back so the shaft flexes back. When the clubhead leaves the turf there is no more resistance from the ground and the stress on the shaft rebounds causing the clubhead to pass the shaft. The more flexible the shaft, the more this will happen.

 

[golfdad]

So on a downward strike into the ground with an iron, the shaft flexes targetward before impact, the ground then causes backward deflection, and then just post-impact, the shaft returns to flexion targetward? Wow, I had no idea that much was going on.

And I agree with Kevin. The supposed "Most important illustration in the history of golf" should be something that is actually happening.

what if there is no "ground" except a tee, in the case of a driver hit?

 

[chipingguru]

Wow, I had no clue till today that the shaft bows toward the ball just before impact. Had always though it bowed away till the ball was struck then releases forward.

But, the new high speed cameras definately show thats the way it works.

Fascinating info.