Tiger Woods at the Match Play
- Thread starter ekennedy
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I agree with most here that the mechanics he's working on do not seem to be at all natural to him (particularly the low left hands; he has been a high hands low right shoulder guy his whole life) but at least some of this has to do with the turmoil in his head as well. If you're that uncomfortable in your own skin, how can he get comfortable when he's playing? IMO, he has some self imposed guilt trip about succeeding now. I agree that Foley's stuff is not good for Tiger. It's been 7/8 months now and that's a LONG time for perhaps the most talented player ever to not get it? As a fan of golf history and excellence in sports, I feel ripped off by the whole deal.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
How many of these guys havent been heard from for a while?
Elkington's career has been ruined by him dallying around from method to method but like a true tinkerer,he would never admit to it and would still love all his mistresses.His swing looks horrible now compared to early in his career.
You should never mess around too much with your natural pattern particularly if you have already reached the highest level of the game.Perhaps if you are hopelessly hacking it around then would I suggest a total swing operation.
In my opinion the guys on tour who are succesful using SnT probably weren't too far off it in the first place so it was close to their natural pattern.Anybody got a before and after of Charlie Wi or Troy Matteson?These two appear to have the most long term success.
You should never mess around too much with your natural pattern particularly if you have already reached the highest level of the game.Perhaps if you are hopelessly hacking it around then would I suggest a total swing operation.
In my opinion the guys on tour who are succesful using SnT probably weren't too far off it in the first place so it was close to their natural pattern.Anybody got a before and after of Charlie Wi or Troy Matteson?These two appear to have the most long term success.
Todd Dugan
New
There's nothing wrong with a flat left arm plane at the top. But Tiger already had that before starting with Foley.
The clubhead moves on a plane through the impact zone. So do the hands......which means that the hands ALWAYS move up and in after their low point. Eventually, they come up off that plane after impact, just like they did on the backswing. There's no reason to try to force your hands left through impact. They don't have a choice. Tiger should be focused on the horizontal direction of that hand plane, and matching the clubhead plane up with it...... Not the vertical angle/relative flatness of those planes, or how long the hands stay on that plane after impact.
birdie_man
New
Good post. Lots of things can be timed for sure.
As far as I can tell Tiger ain't built to swing real easy, or at least real smooth.
If the pivot stalls and the arms fly off the chest due to centrifugal force with a raising of the handle the hands may not be working left immediately after impact. All handpaths are obviously not the same and different methods/teachers would advocate different path intentions to address different observations. Are you suggesting Tiger should chase his hands down the target line? Or just that they will eventually go left regardless of pivot / release / hip exention / right arm activity so why worry about it?
Todd Dugan
New
I believe that the hands will move on a plane for, at minimum, a short distance on both sides of their low point, in a swing of any force....for the same reasons that this is true for the clubhead. The hands don't just go "inside", they go up the plane. You can't force your hands to go inside of that hand plane immediately after impact any more than you can force the clubhead off of its plane immediatley after impact. And regardless of whether the clubhead plane is the same as the hand plane just before impact, they will merge just after impact. So you can't force your hands "in" while the club goes "out" (even if you could, it would mean that the clubhead plane is horizontally rightward of the hand plane, which is the very essence of "getting stuck"). But that's just how Foley describes what he wants Tiger to do. They're trying to buck physics.
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Very interesting post Todd. It makes one realise a very basic truth, often perhaps overlooked: you can be as steep as you like (VSP) and still swing left (HSP)! Maybe the SnTers didn't realise this
birly-shirly
New
It's funny - but, as I see it, this also expresses well the fundamental problem that I see with the theory of congruent shaft plane angles as some sort of neutral ideal. To bomb like that once might be unlucky, but twice begins to look careless...
A couple of points...
Tiger has ALWAYS had a coach. I'm not so sure there is a NATURAL move in there anywhere, at any point. The kids been playing since he was 2. I looked at the Merv Griffin Show in super slow-mo....he was a little stuck then too.
Secondly, Tiger claims he is 6 months into a two-year project. Yikes! What if he was sold a bill of goods and two years from now he is no better (or even worse) than he is right now? Does he start over? Get a new teacher? Are we a minimum of 4 years away from seeing world class golf from Tiger again?
I've always thought that there is something inherently wrong with a person that gets into national politics. Gigantic egos. It's clear that to work with Tiger Woods also takes a gigantic ego. Golf swing mechanics are very subjective and obviously vary from teacher to teacher. So I seriously doubt that Sean Foley will ever completely backtrack and say he was wrong about anything, even if evidence is clearly presented to the contrary.
On a separate note, Rickie Fowler drops the ass-hammer on Phil Mickelson yesterday without the aid of an instructor. Swing thoughts? Zero. Tiger? Every swing.
Tiger has ALWAYS had a coach. I'm not so sure there is a NATURAL move in there anywhere, at any point. The kids been playing since he was 2. I looked at the Merv Griffin Show in super slow-mo....he was a little stuck then too.
Secondly, Tiger claims he is 6 months into a two-year project. Yikes! What if he was sold a bill of goods and two years from now he is no better (or even worse) than he is right now? Does he start over? Get a new teacher? Are we a minimum of 4 years away from seeing world class golf from Tiger again?
I've always thought that there is something inherently wrong with a person that gets into national politics. Gigantic egos. It's clear that to work with Tiger Woods also takes a gigantic ego. Golf swing mechanics are very subjective and obviously vary from teacher to teacher. So I seriously doubt that Sean Foley will ever completely backtrack and say he was wrong about anything, even if evidence is clearly presented to the contrary.
On a separate note, Rickie Fowler drops the ass-hammer on Phil Mickelson yesterday without the aid of an instructor. Swing thoughts? Zero. Tiger? Every swing.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
To be fair, Fowler does or did have a coach growing up but all they really did was perfect clubface control, or so I read. And thats the swing he came up with to do it. I love it.
Fowler’s swing wasn’t fashioned under the tutelage of a country club coach. His swing was developed at Murrieta Valley Golf Range, under the eye of a driving range instructor, Barry McDonnell. He’s still the only swing coach Fowler’s ever had.
“Barry taught Rickie old school,” Rod Fowler said. “He taught him to play with feel rather than mechanics. He also taught him how to fix himself. Mentally, he was good for Rickie. He taught him never to let anything get in his way.”
Pretty refreshing, huh?
“Barry taught Rickie old school,” Rod Fowler said. “He taught him to play with feel rather than mechanics. He also taught him how to fix himself. Mentally, he was good for Rickie. He taught him never to let anything get in his way.”
Pretty refreshing, huh?
aaron_lohan
New
We must bear in mind that Tiger is a slow learner, in the early days under Butch he would hit some very loose shots, countless times I saw him hit a short iron 30 yards past the pin, he will get back to a high level. I think people should accept that 2000 was a career year and he will never replicate that success again so people should stop comparing him to that.
Aaron-thats making a huge assumption that every change he ever makes is in his best interest.
If that was the case, he would make subtle changes to his swing that Nick Price used to call, polishing with steel wool. He is making wholesale changes, every few years. Its as if he is abandoning everything that made him succesful in an effort to prove someone else's swing theories are correct.
Can he win? Of course. Did he need to make a drastic change after Butch, after Hank? No. Period. I promise you, I could have given him a few things to work on and two years later he would figure out how to make it work. It doesn't make me, or Sean Foley, a genius.
If that was the case, he would make subtle changes to his swing that Nick Price used to call, polishing with steel wool. He is making wholesale changes, every few years. Its as if he is abandoning everything that made him succesful in an effort to prove someone else's swing theories are correct.
Can he win? Of course. Did he need to make a drastic change after Butch, after Hank? No. Period. I promise you, I could have given him a few things to work on and two years later he would figure out how to make it work. It doesn't make me, or Sean Foley, a genius.
ZAP
New
With all these struggles personal and otherwise I guess we will see if he truly has the "strong mind" his Dad said he has. I think we agree he is pretty gifted physically for golf. I don't know as much as most here about the golf swing but I do know he really looks uncomfortable over the ball.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Simple.
Tiger is an elbow planer—Always has been.
He always has had steep shoulders—a low right shoulder—through the ball.
This is a mismatch for anything but an aim left cut/push, or a slinging draw. No problem, he has won majors with both shots working.
Butch tried to get the eventual sweetspot path-plane more steep. Probably get the right shoulder higher as well. This could really work, and obviously did when he was "in the middle" of it all.
But an elbow planer will always have a problem with the feel of a steeper eventual plane, ask Phil.
So, Haney had early sucess with Tiger allowing him to down shift to his natural elbow plane.
But Haney's backswing forced Tiger to over drop, and Tiger had never been so laid off—two rights+the weaker grip. And a pink slip.
Sean's desire to have Tiger leftward, makes him HAVE TO have his right shoulder even lower, and there is a serious concavity in his hand path.
I'd really like to see some good video from both angles.
I wish them both luck.
Tiger is an elbow planer—Always has been.
He always has had steep shoulders—a low right shoulder—through the ball.
This is a mismatch for anything but an aim left cut/push, or a slinging draw. No problem, he has won majors with both shots working.
Butch tried to get the eventual sweetspot path-plane more steep. Probably get the right shoulder higher as well. This could really work, and obviously did when he was "in the middle" of it all.
But an elbow planer will always have a problem with the feel of a steeper eventual plane, ask Phil.
So, Haney had early sucess with Tiger allowing him to down shift to his natural elbow plane.
But Haney's backswing forced Tiger to over drop, and Tiger had never been so laid off—two rights+the weaker grip. And a pink slip.
Sean's desire to have Tiger leftward, makes him HAVE TO have his right shoulder even lower, and there is a serious concavity in his hand path.
I'd really like to see some good video from both angles.
I wish them both luck.
Mike Thomas (sunmart)
New member
"I wish them both luck." Seems like you know "luck" is the only chance they got.
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