Tiger Woods future

[johnnymarlboro]

Jack's values and investment in his family wound up propelling him to the highest heights.

That's just a little bit too sappy and feel good for me, to be perfectly honest. No offense intended. Jack was propelled to the highest heights, because that's what great Champions do. They win when you expect it, and when you least expect it as well.

 

[jenhaoyen]

Because he is a level above anyone else.
Because of the excitement he generates for a lot of people.
Ratings.
Happy sponsors
Happy tv execs
Because he is different from the generic tour player
Because he appeals to a wider audience
Because he highlights traits that others don't have

Who watched the Masters this year? Compare that to Martin Kaymer winning the PGA? Or Westwood or Donald winning anything? How about Dustin Johnson and his ability to string a sentence together? Until MacIlroy or Mannessaro closes out a major in spectacular style, Tiger is the story most of the time.

i'm not watching this year, he's not playing.

No drama to see here

 

[dbl]

That's just a little bit too sappy and feel good for me, to be perfectly honest. No offense intended. Jack was propelled to the highest heights, because that's what great Champions do. They win when you expect it, and when you least expect it as well.

You are welcome to your opinion, but nonetheless the man himself was admitting he would have had no inspiration/motivation, that he was about done. He had competed a long time and the major wins were coming slower and slower and he already passed Bobby Jones...

By the way, except for Nicklaus and Player, most winners of majors have about a 10 year window from their first to their last...so Nicklaus was already in rarefied air. There are very few "great champions" who went on winning majors beyond Nicklaus' 16 year span of time that Jack had as of 1978.

Of the major winners with long spans from first to last, I can find:
-Willie Park Sr, span of 16 years, his last in 1875.
-JH Taylor had a 19 year span.
-Vardon had 18 years, snagging two more in 1911 and 1914 after an 8 year gap from his 1903 win.
-Sarazen hit a span of 13 years, but then he won his first when he was 20 years old.
-Snead had a 12 year gap from first to last.
-Henry Cotton, 14 year span from first to last.
-Gary Player had a span of 19 years.
-Raymond Floyd won in his 17th year from his first.
-Lee Trevino hit a 14 year span from his first to his last.

So by this standard of winning past Nicklaus’ 16 years span (which existed in 1978) we only have Player and Vardon and possibly Floyd.

For Woods, 16 years will be in 2013. But for purposes of the point I was reporting on, he certainly won't have 3 kids older than 13 years of age cheering him on, whom he has been heavily devoted to. We shall have to see whether Woods' can bootstrap himself into such an extended era of success, by winning in 2013 or later, and then winning yet again (to compare to Nicklaus winning in year 16 and winning (in JN's case) 3 times afterwards).

ETA: Actually, Nicklaus is the only golfer to have a 16 year span between his first major and then his presumed last but to go on to win another (and he won 3 more). Player had a 15 year span and then won again. Floyd had a 14 year span and then won again. JH Taylor had a 15 year span and then won his 5th British in 1913. Vardon had a 15 span and then won his 6th British in 1914. So really, expecting something of "great champions" and only having one person fill the bill begs the question of why he was unique.

 

[trickyric67]

I absolutely see your point and want to add something that supports it, in as far as Jack's career. I just heard this this year, perhaps in an interview with Jack. Certainly his family was important to him, and rather than a distraction or waste of time and resources...when he was older (when the kids were older too) they all encouraged him to get out there and continue doing his thing, and he then wanted to show them what he could do. He credited his two majors in 1980 and later the 86 Masters due to his family. When I heard this, I think I understood his 20+ years of longevity, and by contrast what TW is missing (at the moment) to be able to have as long a career as Jack.

Jack's values and investment in his family wound up propelling him to the highest heights.

you get my point exactly

 

[self-mastery]

So we are presupposing four things:

1) Trickric67 has privy into Tiger's personal life.
2) Being a happy family man is prerequisite to surviving slumps.
3) Tiger Woods doesn't have a support system or any interests outside of golf.
4) Having a family is the only way to be happy.

Sounds rather speculative and silly to me

 

[dbl]

If you examine Nicklaus you will see certain components.

If you examine Woods, many of those same components are missing.

So far, there is nothing speculative about that.

Nicklaus credited his family for helping extend his longevity into (or beyond, arguably) the super realm. Is he correct? Can't really say, but believe there is a good likelihood.

Will Woods be able to successfully bootstrap/lift/propel himself (*or with help of his separated family, business partners or hard to find inner circle of close important people) in some way that seems will be different from Nicklaus? Again we shall have to see.

Eta: * above

 

[johnnymarlboro]

Well, Jack has said alot of things. He also said that Tiger would win more majors that him and Arnold Palmer combined. You could just as easily argue that if Jack never had any kids or a family at all that he could've won a ton more majors. As a matter of fact, I think raising families hurt alot of guys more then it helped any of them. Distracted them from winning, and took their attention away from golf. I'm just saying trying to draw any correlation to having a family helping to win golf tournaments is like Self-Mastery said, speculative and silly.

 

[trickyric67]

So we are presupposing four things:

1) Trickric67 has privy into Tiger's personal life.
2) Being a happy family man is prerequisite to surviving slumps.
3) Tiger Woods doesn't have a support system or any interests outside of golf.
4) Having a family is the only way to be happy.

Sounds rather speculative and silly to me

I would like to state two things;
1) these condescending attacks on me are unnecessary and have no place on this forum.
2)you have completely unequivocally missed my point and clearly put your intentions on my words.
My point was simply that at some time probably sooner than later as tiger closes in on 40, his PGA tour career will go into serious decline and without the support system that Jack and Arnie had what will the effect be? Not will he ever win again or dominate again but when the eventual end of his prime comes what does he have in his life to go on to?
BTW,
this is a discussion board and I was putting up a topic I was thinking about to discuss, I am sorry that you feel so strongly to defend Tiger when all I have stated is what you can read in the paper. I am not hating on him at all. I am actually a fan, but the idea that as his prime winds down and people go scurrying away from him (as quite a few of his sponsors have)what does he have to focus on?
If you don't feel the topic is worth discussing than don't. I was just posting something I was thinking about, nothing more and nothing less
Trickyric67

 

[dbl]

Well, Jack has said alot of things. He also said that Tiger would win more majors that him and Arnold Palmer combined.

Nicklaus said this about the Masters count.

Here's one reference on it.
A decade later, '97 Masters is legendary - SFGate

 

[Damon Lucas]

Tricky,

I don't think self was hating on you as much as simply disagreeing. He stated his points pretty clearly, and I agree with him, especially about being happy not necessarily being dependent on being a family man.

What about Vijay? He did ok in his 40s.

You use words like 'serious decline' as if they are a given, then assume he has no support system. How do you know, apart from what the tabloids say? He comes across as a pretty private guy, so why should anyone outside of his circle know? And this stuff about his life after golf. He could join forces with Oprah for all we know!!! His foundation seems like it holds a lot of pride for him, and I am sure there are many beneficiaries.

The onus is on you if you are going to reproduce rumours and opinions from sketchy media outlets, not on self, nor anyone else.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

I agree, I don't think Self-Mastery was trying to personally attack you. I think he's trying to point out how futile your thesis is. I think YOU are missing everyone else's point. How do YOU know that Tiger has no support system? You are assuming things that couldn't possibly know unless you know Tiger VERY well. The fact is, you don't know jack about Tiger's personal life or his relationship with his children or any of that. We know that Tiger has kids, and an ex-wife, and a mother. That's it. You act like Tiger is some journeyman golfer who's been grinding on tour his whole life with no family, no wins, and nothing to show for it. Like at 35 he has no chance of happiness from this point on. Again, seriously, what is there really to discuss?

DBL, I made a mistake, thanks for clarifying. It doesn’t change my point. MY point is that Jack talks a lot of BS sometimes. Just because Jack said it, it doesn't mean anything. He could've said a ham sandwich inspired him to win the 86 Masters, but he said it was because of his kids. Big deal, it doesn't change anything. Professional athletes use every excuse in the book as to why they succeed or fail. Jack, in particular, always loves spouting that type of sentimental BS. It’s the same reason most athletes thank their favorite deity when they win, because it sounds good. People like when their hero’s are humble. If he said “I won cause I’m Jack F’ing Nicklaus!” it probably wouldn’t have gone over as well.

 

[birly-shirly]

Sorry - but I'm having a hard time reading the original post as saying anything other than "Tiger's not as good a person as either Jack or Arnie". Now unless you have real close personal experience of all 3, how in the world can you even discuss this?

I'm a huge fan of Jack, as a competitive golfer, but Father of the Year? Give me a break. Do you think Jack would have traded one of his majors for that title?

If Tiger gets back on track, and particularly if he takes 19 big ones, you can bet the house that he will credit his parents and his children as the inspiration.

And if I've missed the point, and this thread is purely about how Tiger's home life is going to impact on his pursuit of more majors, then I don't see that he's got much to learn from Arnie.

 

[trickyric67]

ok,
1)Jack was a national father of the year award winner.
2) Tiger has lost his wife and his kids are in another country.
3)his father is dead and his mother lives in Cali (BTW, Earl and Tilda lived in seperate houses in separate states the last 4 years at least of his life and she was in her home when he died.
next,
I never said one was better, nor did I ever state that Tigers lifestyle was good or bad you people keep putting your intentions on my words. you read words and add context and content which is not there. Some of you keep stating as if there was any evidence at all that Arnie was a womanizer. Athletic primes come to an end for anyone.
I was posing a simple conversation thought based only on the information at hand about life outside of golf nothing else, go back and read my post, especially the last paragraph.
And if you don't feel that shots were taken you should re-read the thread. Your responses became personal.
Lastly, I was asking a simple question that was strictly opinion based and I got back opinions about things I didn't ask about.

 

[birly-shirly]

ok,
1)Jack was a national father of the year award winner.
2) Tiger has lost his wife and his kids are in another country.
3)his father is dead and his mother lives in Cali (BTW, Earl and Tilda lived in seperate houses in separate states the last 4 years at least of his life and she was in her home when he died.
next,
I never said one was better, nor did I ever state that Tigers lifestyle was good or bad you people keep putting your intentions on my words. you read words and add context and content which is not there. Some of you keep stating as if there was any evidence at all that Arnie was a womanizer. Athletic primes come to an end for anyone.
I was posing a simple conversation thought based only on the information at hand about life outside of golf nothing else, go back and read my post, especially the last paragraph.
And if you don't feel that shots were taken you should re-read the thread. Your responses became personal.
Lastly, I was asking a simple question that was strictly opinion based and I got back opinions about things I didn't ask about.

I read your first post twice before replying. I believe that Jack may have won a Father of the Year award. I just don't believe that it means anything. Nor do I believe that you'll see it on display in his trophy room...

I tried to read your post as if it were just about Tiger's prospects for getting back to playing winning golf. But the comparison with Arnie sends that (generous) interpretation up a dead-end. Arnie's idyllic home life didn't help him sustain a winning career for more than half as long as Tiger's had already.

So if you weren't talking about the effect on his golf, what were you talking about? Can you see now how your post might have been interpreted as a judgement on Tiger's life choices?

 

[trickyric67]

"both of these great men were very public with their love of family and friends and the public knew who they were.
On to Tiger, while he has seemed to create his own woes, he has also become celebrity guy, hanging with Jordan and Barkley et al. he seems to have stripped away all the comforts of family and home which leaves the question of what happens to him when the game isn't there? Does the support of people who love him unconditionally matter and if so do they exist in his world?"

that was the last paragraph of my post, notice the sentence "what happens to him when the game isn't there?", it wasn't about his golf it was about life after or outside of golf. We now have a 4 page thread all about a subject I never posed.

 

[birly-shirly]

Well - to be honest, I think that it would have been better if you had asked about his golf. How are you, or anyone else here, in a position to judge his life, or happiness outside of the game? Lots of folks lose a parent or have their family break up. It doesn't mean that they're condemned to a life of unhappiness. You don't think you could find a hundred guys easy who would trade places with Tiger in an instant?

Jack's your hero - and that's cool. It's not like Tiger's mine. For all I know, his secret might be that he's too self-absorbed to even care about "the comforts of family and home".

 

[trickyric67]

Well - to be honest, I think that it would have been better if you had asked about his golf. How are you, or anyone else here, in a position to judge his life, or happiness outside of the game? Lots of folks lose a parent or have their family break up. It doesn't mean that they're condemned to a life of unhappiness. You don't think you could find a hundred guys easy who would trade places with Tiger in an instant?

Jack's your hero - and that's cool. It's not like Tiger's mine. For all I know, his secret might be that he's too self-absorbed to even care about "the comforts of family and home".

Again,
I wasn't judging or favoring, just putting out facts and asking if any of it mattered, if you feel that I should have asked a different question then that is your opinion and you can ask a different question. I did not judge Tiger to be better or worse, you are putting your intentions on my words, preconceived content that wasn't there. mine was simply do you think it matters? and why or why not? everything else was added to the question by people other than me.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

he has also become celebrity guy, hanging with Jordan and Barkley et al. he seems to have stripped away all the comforts of family and home which leaves the question of what happens to him when the game isn't there?

Really? You're telling me that's not being judgemental? Come on... I don't think your tone leaves much room for misinterpretation.

 

[trickyric67]

Really? You're telling me that's not being judgemental? Come on... I don't think your tone leaves much room for misinterpretation.

tone would be in your inner voice as you read. there is no sound in the written word. I can say the sentence "so what I hear you saying" in many different ways and have many different meanings. I laid out the facts and asked peoples opinion and while my opinion probably comes through in that the loss of family could hurt him, it was about life after or outside of golf and almost all responses added to the question as if I had asked it.
bottom line I expected answers like "I don't think his current family life is a permanent issue and he is grounded enough to overcome these setbacks and start over with another wife and his kids or what have you" or "I think a huge void may be left in his life and he could follow down a path of over indulgence and excess". Either way his golf was never in question and who I am a fan of was only an issue for people who do not know me to impose opinions on me that I never stated rather than what I clearly wrote.
This thread is dead.

 

[Damon Lucas]

Ric, you 'laid out the facts' in a way that suggested things that many here have interpreted in a certain way. You wanted people to agree with your version of the facts, and when they haven't, you have been trying to put a spin on what you said. What do you think the author of a book does? He/she uses certain words to convey a meaning, exactly like you did. Rather than feign hurt, you could express that people other than you have rights to opinions that might differ from yours. Plenty of people here have said that you have every right to believe that Tiger will crawl into a corner, hug his knees, sob uncontrollably for several years, and stare at a blank wall for the rest of his life once he calls time.(btw...if you missed my tone, it was gentle sarcasm!)