Too much pivot!?

[JeffM]

Mike

You write-: "Both the Bicep and Tricep have muscles that via their tendons attach to the scapula and therefore are in the position at the top of a "normal" full swing- to create movement back down or "pull" the arm down via their contractions."

I somewhat disagree because the biceps/triceps muscles attach at their distal (peripheral) end to the proximal (central) end of the forearm bone. Their function is to bend/extend the elbow at the elbow joint. During the downswing, the left elbow remains perfectly straight so the biceps/triceps muscles cannot shorten and if they do not shorten, they are not contributing to the pulling down of the left arm.

By contrast, the lower (most backward) section of the deltoid muscle can shorten when it contracts and pull the left arm backwards, and because the left arm is upwards-directed at the end-backswing, that backwards-pulling action pulls the left arm down and forwards.

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Bronco Billy

I used the following photograph to demonstrate how the left arm is pulled down by torso muscles situated in the upper torso. Those muscles are operative in Tiger Woods and Craig Stadler's swing.

However, the lower torso muscles are very active in Tiger Woods swing and they cause rotation of the lower/mid torso during the downswing pivot action.

Here is a photo of the muscles involved in torquing the lower/mid torso in the downswing.

Those muscles cause the lower/mid torso to rotate actively in the downswing in golfers like Tiger Woods. In Brian's stunningly beautiful photo, he shows a car speeding around a circular track. The lower torso muscles are significantly involved in powering that rotary movement in golfers who have an active lower body torquing action (like Tiger Woods). By contrast, they cannot contribute much power to Craig Stadler's rotary action.

I think that Craig Stadler's abdominal wall muscles contribute very little to his rotary swing power (car racing around a circular track power).

Jeff.

 

[Mike O]

Anatomy

Mike

You write-: "Both the Bicep and Tricep have muscles that via their tendons attach to the scapula and therefore are in the position at the top of a "normal" full swing- to create movement back down or "pull" the arm down via their contractions."

I somewhat disagree because the biceps/triceps muscles attach at their distal (peripheral) end to the proximal (central) end of the forearm bone. Their function is to bend/extend the elbow at the elbow joint. During the downswing, the left elbow remains perfectly straight so the biceps/triceps muscles cannot shorten and if they do not shorten, they are not contributing to the pulling down of the left arm.

By contrast, the lower (most backward) section of the deltoid muscle can shorten when it contracts and pull the left arm backwards, and because the left arm is upwards-directed at the end-backswing, that backwards-pulling action pulls the left arm down and forwards.

Jeff.

Jeff,
Glad to see you have an interest in anatomy. I'm assuming you completely disagreed and used the term "somewhat" to be nice. At any rate- since the long heads of the Bicep Brachii and the Tricep muscles cross essentially two joints- the shoulder and the elbow- they allow for shoulder movement if the arm is fixed. There is a link to one site I provided for you - if you look under "Muscles at the Shoulder Complex"- you'll find some information that will be helpful. Of course- many other places to find additional information on the muscles and their movements. Thanks for the questions- always good to question things.

http://www.pt.ntu.edu.tw/hmchai/Kinesiology/KINupper/Shoulder.htm

 

[self-mastery]

Once again the only useful information is in Manzella's post.

Brian does the kinetic chain snap concept apply to extreme F.A.T.S (Hitting) stroke patterns?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Bronco Billy

I used the following photograph to demonstrate how the left arm is pulled down by torso muscles situated in the upper torso. Those muscles are operative in Tiger Woods and Craig Stadler's swing.

However, the lower torso muscles are very active in Tiger Woods swing and they cause rotation of the lower/mid torso during the downswing pivot action.

Here is a photo of the muscles involved in torquing the lower/mid torso in the downswing.

Those muscles cause the lower/mid torso to rotate actively in the downswing in golfers like Tiger Woods. In Brian's stunningly beautiful photo, he shows a car speeding around a circular track. The lower torso muscles are significantly involved in powering that rotary movement in golfers who have an active lower body torquing action (like Tiger Woods). By contrast, they cannot contribute much power to Craig Stadler's rotary action.

I think that Craig Stadler's abdominal wall muscles contribute very little to his rotary swing power (car racing around a circular track power).

Jeff.

Hi There

Hell Jeff BOTH Tiger and The Walrus's ClubHead Speed are Both Upper body Generated from Your very nice Pictures.... Neither one of your Pictures has any Colored muscles in the Lower Body... Therefore I assume you are implying Upper Body ClubHead Speed Generation in all Cases.... I Think we are in more Agreement than Disagreement.... I like Your Analysis....Have a Great Day....

Cheers

 

[huestisc]

Bronco Billy,

What do you think of Brian's analysis?

You could very possibly have a great day with the newfound knowledge he has given you, I certainly hope so.

 

[Brian Manzella]

What a joke.

I spent 2 hours and 20 minutes on the graphic.

Thanks, Self-Mastery and Huestic.

 

[JeffM]

Brian

That's an astonishingly beautiful graphic. It's the best thing that I have seen on this site. It also wonderfully teaches an important principle - how the rotation of the core (torso) during the downswing pivot action is responsible for a significant part of the TOTAL swing power in a full golf swing, and that it is independent of other sources of swing power that can synergistically supplement its ability to power the full golf swing. I think that Bronco Billy still doesn't get it. He should print that graphic image and post it on his refrigerator?

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Mike - Thanks for the referral to that website. I actually don't need further instruction in anatomy. I not only have a MD degree - I also have a BSc degree with majors in anatomy and physiology and I spent two full years studying anatomy.

Although the biceps and triceps muscles cross the shoulder joint, they are only designed to move the elbow joint. If the arm was rigidly fixed in place (which doesn't happen in a golf swing), you are arguing that they could move the scapula. That cannot happen because the muscles have to shorten during their isotonic activity, and I cannot picture those muscles shortening when the arm is held rigidily in place. Do this simple experiment. Get a friend to firmly hold your right arm, which should be held out at 90 degrees from the body (facing forward) and parallel to the ground. Now, try and contract your biceps or tirceps muscles to move the scapula while having your right arm held rigidily in place by your friend. Nothing happens! It certainly doesn't surprise me.

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Brian - a question. If the car kept speeding through the impact zone (instead of putting on its brakes) surely the swing power imparted to the ball would not be diminished. I cannot understand why the car has to brake for that "composite model" to be able to hit the golf ball with a great amount of force - presuming that the timing of the release action is optimised to get the clubface square at impact. The Pingman machine doesn't have to brake to efficiently hit a golf ball.

Jeff.

 

[tank]

Seems to me that if the car did not brake, the hinges (that represent the shoulder and wrist) would never swivel to release the club-head ... snapping of the kinetic chain / conservation of angular momentum (I think)

Brian, I can only really speak for myself, but I am pretty certain that the majority of us really appreciate the importance of your graphic and the associated lesson. Thanks.

 

[Mike O]

Discussion

Mike - Thanks for the referral to that website. I actually don't need further instruction in anatomy. I not only have a MD degree - I also have a BSc degree with majors in anatomy and physiology and I spent two full years studying anatomy.

Although the biceps and triceps muscles cross the shoulder joint, they are only designed to move the elbow joint. If the arm was rigidly fixed in place (which doesn't happen in a golf swing), you are arguing that they could move the scapula. That cannot happen because the muscles have to shorten during their isotonic activity, and I cannot picture those muscles shortening when the arm is held rigidily in place. Do this simple experiment. Get a friend to firmly hold your right arm, which should be held out at 90 degrees from the body (facing forward) and parallel to the ground. Now, try and contract your biceps or tirceps muscles to move the scapula while having your right arm held rigidily in place by your friend. Nothing happens! It certainly doesn't surprise me.

Jeff.

I wouldn't mind debating it more but I wouldn't want to, if you don't have an interest- (for whatever reason). Simple yes or no - will do, i.e. if you don't want to elaborate on the reason for the decision- it won't be taken as rude.
Thanks

 

[Bronco Billy]

Mike - Thanks for the referral to that website. I actually don't need further instruction in anatomy. I not only have a MD degree - I also have a BSc degree with majors in anatomy and physiology and I spent two full years studying anatomy.

Although the biceps and triceps muscles cross the shoulder joint, they are only designed to move the elbow joint. If the arm was rigidly fixed in place (which doesn't happen in a golf swing), you are arguing that they could move the scapula. That cannot happen because the muscles have to shorten during their isotonic activity, and I cannot picture those muscles shortening when the arm is held rigidily in place. Do this simple experiment. Get a friend to firmly hold your right arm, which should be held out at 90 degrees from the body (facing forward) and parallel to the ground. Now, try and contract your biceps or tirceps muscles to move the scapula while having your right arm held rigidily in place by your friend. Nothing happens! It certainly doesn't surprise me.

Jeff.

Jeff You are the Missing Link..... You are What is Needed to Understand the Golf Swing in terms of the Human Body.... Double Pendulum Math Models, PingMan Metal Robots, Etc. are All MODELS that are Trying to Represent what is Happening in the REAL Human Machine.... These Robots/Math Models/Etc. are NOT the Real Thing and Only REPRESENT the Real Thing(The Human Golfer)..... Now Make My Day and Give Me some More New Found Knowledge...

 

[birdie_man]

Very cool stuff Brian. Thanks. I think the analogy should help some....(ahem).....

...

BTW......even though Stads doesn't look it (technique AND physique) I say he must be using his ab muscles. (believe it or not he has them) Of course I could be very wrong because I don't know which muscles in the torso (whether it is the back or abs or w/e) actually pull etc. etc.

I am gonna go with a 'yes' though. (as my stance- for now)

...

It's easier to hit a golf ball when you pivot.....

Oh, and I did try it the other way (no pivot) too.

One afternoon I tried a no-pivot swing (arms, arms, arms!), and to be honest it was one of the best practice sessions I have ever had...every club in the bag down to a 2-iron...all dead straight and long.. I broke the 2-iron in the end....

But could i do it the next day?....no way....

But puttmad.........you are STILL using your pivot.....whether you are consciously trying to or not.

i.e. you may just be TRYING to use the arms to take the club back and down.......but the pivot gets in there unless you are gonna somehow strap your shoulders and hips to a wall and use a full length armswing (as full of a length armswing as you can take without hip and shoulder movement) to hit the ball....well- I assume not very far at all.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I am going out on a limb and saying that.

 

[Burner]

Very cool stuff Brian. Thanks. I think the analogy should help some....(ahem).....

...

BTW......even though Stads doesn't look it (technique AND physique) I say he must be using his ab muscles. (believe it or not he has them) Of course I could be very wrong because I don't know which muscles in the torso (whether it is the back or abs or w/e) actually pull etc. etc.

I am gonna go with a 'yes' though. (as my stance- for now)...

But puttmad.........you are STILL using your pivot.....whether you are consciously trying to or not.

i.e. you may just be TRYING to use the arms to take the club back and down.......but the pivot gets in there unless you are gonna somehow strap your shoulders and hips to a wall and use a full length armswing (as full of a length armswing as you can take without hip and shoulder movement) to hit the ball....well- I assume not very far at all.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I am going out on a limb and saying that.

You're not wrong.

I already said this a few posts back -#38.

 

[birdie_man]

You're not wrong.

I already said this a few posts back -#38.

Oh you are just so on top of everything Burner.

 

[self-mastery]

MEH

There's no such thing as a zero pivot swing, different swing patterns have different pivot requirements. I use an extremely quiet body, but I know that my pivot supports the violent action of my right arm, and doesn't really supply much power. Jeffman's picture doesn't represent how I use my left arm in my back swing. So many 'my way' zealots and regurgitators...

 

[tongzilla]

I will try to reduce this argument to some basic questions, which I will answer.

1. Brian, What percentage of the speed of the clubhead comes from the arms, hands and wrists, and what percentage comes from the Pivot?

First of all, let's look at what absolutely happens on the downswing, and then we can start figuring percentages.

At the top of the swing, the left arm is about 45° across the chest, the left wrist is cocked about 90°, the left hand is turned about 90° open.

The Shoulders are turned about 90°, the hips about 45°, and the weight has shifted to about 85% to the right foot.

From the top, EVERYTHING MOVES VERY MUCH TOGETHER. Trust me on this folks. All the 3D machines concur, and we had stiff from BioVison back in the very early 90'. EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH STARTS TOGETHER.

At some point in the dowmswing, the legs have a big slow down—nearly a stop. Then so do the hips, then the shoulders.

At that point, the arms move some more before they do their "slow down to a near stop," then the hands—as a unit—then the ball gets hit.

Boom!

So, in english, the body and the arms start down as nearly the same speed, and at some point, the clubhead is moving over 100mph.

We'll talk about the arms, hands, and wrist sequences later.​

Imagine a car speeding up in a tight circle. Hanging out one window is a big rubber trunk, about as big around as a telephone pole. The rubber trunk is long enough to reach the back bumper, and at that point an oversize golf club is attached with a 90° hinge.

So, the car is producing speed. But in the real world of golf, the arms are too.

The snap of the KINETIC CHAIN (or the car putting the brakes on), and the release of the wirst cock and hand roll, produce all of the speed.

So...can you pivot on your knees?

Yup.

And you can only do it to a point...an automatic pivot snap.

Does Jack K. pivot?

Yup.

He pivots and stop it abruptly, the best way to pivot.

Did you learn anything, Billy?

nice explanation

it's interesting how your hinge allows the clubface to square up at impact. And somehow it DOES square up!

 

[puttmad]

But puttmad.........you are STILL using your pivot.....whether you are consciously trying to or not.

Yes, but in the most minimal way...No hip turn on the backswing and no hip turn until after impact...all arms bud...

 

[birdie_man]

None?