Too much pivot!?

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Reread my post.....

YES SIR! (military sal-oot)

:D

.......BTW- I did.....and?

I think he hits it 250-300 on the big yellow ball.... I did NOT say golfers don't Pivot... I DID say Golfers Body Pivot contributes very little to Clubhead Velocity....

A bit of bad wording on my part. But this is basically what I meant by "not USING his pivot." (to contribute SPEED)

And don't even try to jump all over me because even though I am the master of splitting hair (follicles) your 10%, to me, might as well be "not using" if I'm talking (typing) casually.

My guess would be on a 100mph clubhead swing.... Arms(90mph) and body(10mph)....

I don't know the numbers so I can't say for sure (to be fair and scientific) but I really really doubt it's anywhere near that to be honest.
 
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Bronco Billy

New member
YES SIR! (military sal-oot)

:D

.......BTW- I did.....and?



A bit of bad wording on my part. But this is basically what I meant by "not USING his pivot." (to contribute SPEED)

And don't even try to jump all over me because even though I am the master of splitting hair (follicles) your 10%, to me, might as well be "not using" if I'm talking (typing) casually.



I don't know the numbers so I can't say for sure (to be fair and scientific) but I really really doubt it's anywhere near that to be honest.

I guess a better simplistic wording would be 90% of velocity attributted to UPPER body(Arms/Etc.) Antics.... 10% of velocity attributted to LOWER Body(Legs/etc.) Antics... Believe it or not MOST Good Players swing the Same as the Guy on the Big Yellow Ball... Now ask yourself this Question.... Are you interested in what REALLY happens in a Golf Swing or are you interested in just reciting what an Authority Fiqure(Some Golf Pro) says Happens in a Golf Swing?????

What would your Estimates be of upper body VS lower Body Velocity Contributing Components?

Have a Great Day with Your New Found Knowledge..... :)
 

Bronco Billy

New member
BroncoBilly

You state that the arms provide 90% of the clubhead speed. Which particular muscle groups move the arms (especially the left arm)?

Jeff.

I have No Idea :confused: I should have said Upper body(90% CH Speed) VS lower Body(10% CH Speed).... The Balloon Man is my Proof.... Have a Great Day...:)
 

JeffM

New member
Bronco Billy

OK. That makes a huge difference. It is understandable that the upper body would be responsible for most the clubhead speed because the shoulders turn 90 degrees plus, and the arms get flung around the body by the rotating torso. In an upper body swing player (eg. Craig Stadler) the figure may be higher than 90%, while in a lower body golfer like Tiger Woods, the figure would be considerably lower.

It is difficult to envisage that Tiger Woods' lower body only contributes 10% of his clubhead speed after viewing the following video. The figures may have to be reversed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wxn0sIkJH8&mode=related&search=

Jeff.
 
I have No Idea :confused: I should have said Upper body(90% CH Speed) VS lower Body(10% CH Speed).... The Balloon Man is my Proof.... Have a Great Day...:)

Bronco,
First of all, why bother coming onto Brian's site to preach what you think is correct? Maybe you should find a place where people who concur with your own beliefs can have a discussion? Your "have a great day with your new found knowledge" comment is juvenile and uncalled for.

Now, show me another athletic maneuver (throwing a ball, a javelin etc..) where your pivot is not critical to generating speed? Can Nadal hit a tennis ball standing flat footed and using just his arms? Yes, but does he, NO!!
Can Roger Clemens stand flat footed and throw a pitch? Yes, but he does NOT!!!
 

Bronco Billy

New member
Bronco Billy

OK. That makes a huge difference. It is understandable that the upper body would be responsible for most the clubhead speed because the shoulders turn 90 degrees plus, and the arms get flung around the body by the rotating torso. In an upper body swing player (eg. Craig Stadler) the figure may be higher than 90%, while in a lower body golfer like Tiger Woods, the figure would be considerably lower.

It is difficult to envisage that Tiger Woods' lower body only contributes 10% of his clubhead speed after viewing the following video. The figures may have to be reversed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wxn0sIkJH8&mode=related&search=

Jeff.

Tiger and the Walrus's Lower/Upper Body %'s are probably pretty close to the same.... Tiger's Severe lower body movements on the DownSwing are necessary to rotate the clubhead 90 degrees back to Square at the Impact Position.... The walrus does most of the Squaring Job on the Backswing making his downswing Easier and much more Graceful than Tigers.....

Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge....:D :D :D
 
Just rolling with you here bronco...

I guess a better simplistic wording would be 90% of velocity attributted to UPPER body(Arms/Etc.) Antics.... 10% of velocity attributted to LOWER Body(Legs/etc.) Antics... Believe it or not MOST Good Players swing the Same as the Guy on the Big Yellow Ball... Now ask yourself this Question.... Are you interested in what REALLY happens in a Golf Swing or are you interested in just reciting what an Authority Fiqure(Some Golf Pro) says Happens in a Golf Swing?????

What would your Estimates be of upper body VS lower Body Velocity Contributing Components?

a guess, huh?


Originally Posted by JeffMann
You state that the arms provide 90% of the clubhead speed. Which particular muscle groups move the arms (especially the left arm)?


I have No Idea I should have said Upper body(90% CH Speed) VS lower Body(10% CH Speed).... The Balloon Man is my Proof


So, It's a guess or no idea? Which one is it? :)

and the proof is a dude on a balloon. OK. How does this differ from just some golf pro?

Make it a great day!
 

Bronco Billy

New member
Just rolling with you here bronco...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco Billy
I guess a better simplistic wording would be 90% of velocity attributted to UPPER body(Arms/Etc.) Antics.... 10% of velocity attributted to LOWER Body(Legs/etc.) Antics... Believe it or not MOST Good Players swing the Same as the Guy on the Big Yellow Ball... Now ask yourself this Question.... Are you interested in what REALLY happens in a Golf Swing or are you interested in just reciting what an Authority Fiqure(Some Golf Pro) says Happens in a Golf Swing?????

What would your Estimates be of upper body VS lower Body Velocity Contributing Components?

a guess, huh?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffMann
You state that the arms provide 90% of the clubhead speed. Which particular muscle groups move the arms (especially the left arm)?


I have No Idea I should have said Upper body(90% CH Speed) VS lower Body(10% CH Speed).... The Balloon Man is my Proof


So, It's a guess or no idea? Which one is it?

and the proof is a dude on a balloon. OK. How does this differ from just some golf pro?

Make it a great day!
__________________
Hogan and his three right hands!

"I'm only scared of three things: lightning, a side-hill putt and Ben Hogan". Sam Snead

I Don't Mind Being Trashed.... But at Least be Logical about it.....
 
Well sir.......(Mr. Bronco).....

If you are talking about lower body VS. upper body then this is a completely different story.

This is obviously why I tried to pin you down to your definition of pivot.

So......I will not speculate numbers because I don't know.....

But I will say that your numbers now sound more reasonable to me.

"Have a nice day".....(uhhhhhh)......
 
It's easier to hit a golf ball when you pivot.....:)

Oh, and I did try it the other way (no pivot) too.

One afternoon I tried a no-pivot swing (arms, arms, arms!), and to be honest it was one of the best practice sessions I have ever had...every club in the bag down to a 2-iron...all dead straight and long.. I broke the 2-iron in the end....:(

But could i do it the next day?....no way....:)
 
several stated that craig stadler is mostly "upper body" however i watched him on the golf channell playing lessons and his quote was..."the power comes from the legs"! his exact words....any thoughts?? and jeffmann which muscles "move" the left arm?? i was wondering this myself just today as i tried to hit balls with just the left arm....
 

JeffM

New member
Bronco Billy

You wrote-: "Tiger and the Walrus's Lower/Upper Body %'s are probably pretty close to the same.... Tiger's Severe lower body movements on the DownSwing are necessary to rotate the clubhead 90 degrees back to Square at the Impact Position."

You have made two separate assertions. Neither assertion is backed by a reasonably valid biomechanical explanation. I think that both statements have no merit and I would only seriously consider the legitimacy of your assertions if you provided a logical explanation for what (appears to me) to be illogical beliefs.

Jeff.
 

JeffM

New member
Teeithigh

You ask which muscles move the left arm. Instead of naming all the muscles, I will simply use a photo-demonstration. All the muscles in red pull the left arm down and forward during the downswing pivot action. The muscles within the left arm do not pull the left arm.

DownswingMuscles.jpg


Jeff.
 

Bronco Billy

New member
Bronco Billy

You wrote-: "Tiger and the Walrus's Lower/Upper Body %'s are probably pretty close to the same.... Tiger's Severe lower body movements on the DownSwing are necessary to rotate the clubhead 90 degrees back to Square at the Impact Position."

You have made two separate assertions. Neither assertion is backed by a reasonably valid biomechanical explanation. I think that both statements have no merit and I would only seriously consider the legitimacy of your assertions if you provided a logical explanation for what (appears to me) to be illogical beliefs.

Jeff.

Well jeff I don't think you want to get into the Logic Bit of it but... Because using your own logic to prove me Illogical you proved yourself illogical.... That is you stated two INDEPENDENT sources of power(LowerBody(Tiger)/Upper Body(Walrus)) to generate Clubhead Speed... I stated One(Upper Body(Tiger/Walrus)).... Neither one of us Backed either one of the Assertions by a Valid Biomechanical explanation.... Therefore according to You we are Both Full of BullShit...... Have a Great Day in Your New Found Knowledge...:D :D :D
 

Bronco Billy

New member
Teeithigh

You ask which muscles move the left arm. Instead of naming all the muscles, I will simply use a photo-demonstration. All the muscles in red pull the left arm down and forward during the downswing pivot action. The muscles within the left arm do not pull the left arm.

DownswingMuscles.jpg


Jeff.

I Just Love the Golf Sandal..... :p
 

How does the left deltoid pull the left arm down? I agree that it is responsible for lifting the left arm in the BS. You can't forget the abdominal muscles that are responsible for rotating the golfer back towards the target. A better picture would show our model at the start of his down swing.
 

Burner

New
It's easier to hit a golf ball when you pivot.....:)

Oh, and I did try it the other way (no pivot) too.

One afternoon I tried a no-pivot swing (arms, arms, arms!), and to be honest it was one of the best practice sessions I have ever had...every club in the bag down to a 2-iron...all dead straight and long.. I broke the 2-iron in the end....:(

But could i do it the next day?....no way....:)
PM,

I strongly suspect that there was more than an element of unconcious and, thus, natural pivot in your "arms only" swing.

This could explain the accuracy you speak of, whereas a more "engineered" pivot motion might just throw things out of kilter a little bit.

Any athletic motion is easier to achieve once it is allowed to flow freely, as opposed to being the result of, often misapplied, force.
 
Good Point Jeff!

Teeithigh

You ask which muscles move the left arm. Instead of naming all the muscles, I will simply use a photo-demonstration. All the muscles in red pull the left arm down and forward during the downswing pivot action. The muscles within the left arm do not pull the left arm.

DownswingMuscles.jpg


Jeff.

Jeff makes some good points. Previously in the thread - there was the arms versus pivot discussion. Jeff, then identified that the muscles that move the arm primarily originate from the "pivot"- "trunk" and not in the arm, basically showing the "lack of precision" between the arm and body discussion.

If you want to make his statement a little more bullet proof - you'd need to delete or change the last sentence. Both the Bicep and Tricep have muscles that via their tendons attach to the scapula and therefore are in the position at the top of a "normal" full swing- to create movement back down or "pull" the arm down via their contractions. Certainly, they are not the primary movers but they have the ability to be part of the "engine" for that movement.

Regarding the deltoids pulling the arm down- same thing-at the top of a "normal full swing"- the left arm is elevated enough - that fibers of the deltoid muscle, including fibers of the Pectoralis muscles can create and support the downward pull of the left arm, with the other "colored" muscles in the sketch and many others not colored or visible in the sketch.

Of course, just because the arm comes down doesn't mean those muscles were the mover of the arm coming down.

In the end- it's not arms or body - you need to understand all of it and how it all works- how each supports and creates the other, etc. etc. Arms vs Body and what % of each - is like having a discussion about whether it's the engine or the race car driver, or the pit crew that makes the difference in winning a NASCAR race- "Well I think it's 40% driver and 50% engine and 10% pit crew"- If you get into percentages - you are in the wrong place! It's all 100% important and you need to understand each one, and the roles they play, then you need to understand the inter-relationships that they have with each other- and how it all plays together- as one beautiful symphony!
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Pivot vs. Arms and Hands.

I will try to reduce this argument to some basic questions, which I will answer.

1. Brian, What percentage of the speed of the clubhead comes from the arms, hands and wrists, and what percentage comes from the Pivot?

First of all, let's look at what absolutely happens on the downswing, and then we can start figuring percentages.

At the top of the swing, the left arm is about 45° across the chest, the left wrist is cocked about 90°, the left hand is turned about 90° open.

The Shoulders are turned about 90°, the hips about 45°, and the weight has shifted to about 85% to the right foot.

From the top, EVERYTHING MOVES VERY MUCH TOGETHER. Trust me on this folks. All the 3D machines concur, and we had stiff from BioVison back in the very early 90'. EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH STARTS TOGETHER.

At some point in the dowmswing, the legs have a big slow down—nearly a stop. Then so do the hips, then the shoulders.

At that point, the arms move some more before they do their "slow down to a near stop," then the hands—as a unit—then the ball gets hit.

Boom!

So, in english, the body and the arms start down as nearly the same speed, and at some point, the clubhead is moving over 100mph.
We'll talk about the arms, hands, and wrist sequences later.​
Imagine a car speeding up in a tight circle. Hanging out one window is a big rubber trunk, about as big around as a telephone pole. The rubber trunk is long enough to reach the back bumper, and at that point an oversize golf club is attached with a 90° hinge.

cargolf.gif


So, the car is producing speed. But in the real world of golf, the arms are too.

The snap of the KINETIC CHAIN (or the car putting the brakes on), and the release of the wirst cock and hand roll, produce all of the speed.

So...can you pivot on your knees?

Yup.

And you can only do it to a point...an automatic pivot snap.

Does Jack K. pivot?

Yup.

He pivots and stop it abruptly, the best way to pivot.

Did you learn anything, Billy?
 
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