Trackman data: PGA and LPGA Averages

[birly-shirly]

Good luck getting that 0.3* difference from iron to iron. To me that smacks of intuition, not pracrice on TM. Any experts out there with an explanation for this remarkable consistency of the change from iron to iron thro the set?

Wulsy - you don't think that the progression is just a natural consequence of a swing that's consistent enough to be on tour, and clubs that get progressively shorter?

In other words, players aren't necessarily manipulating AoA - but a shorter club surely means a shorter radius of clubhead arc and a steeper AoA on a ball that remains a fairly constant distance from low point.

 

[mgranato]

That's a pretty interesting topic. According to Toski (who eye-witnessed Hogan's practice with a group of other pros), Hogan spent so much time on the range not because of his high-mantenance swing could go into pieces (as many wrongly think), but to work on a very serious goal - to keep the same trajectory independently on loft and length of a club.

Cheers

By definition, isn't that maintenance?

 

[wulsy]

Wulsy - you don't think that the progression is just a natural consequence of a swing that's consistent enough to be on tour, and clubs that get progressively shorter?

In other words, players aren't necessarily manipulating AoA - but a shorter club surely means a shorter radius of clubhead arc and a steeper AoA on a ball that remains a fairly constant distance from low point.

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Seems like reasonable argument. BUT BUT BUT, I don't think that it's the case Mr Birly. There are just too many other variables from club to club. I believe it has been said/claimed that you need a different swing for every club.

 

[Dariusz J.]

By definition, isn't that maintenance?

Yes, but maintenance of a much more difficult goal to achieve and perform than just consistency of the motion. As regards the plain consistency and repeatability, his swing was very low-maintenance one what is easily confirmed by people with a daily access to Hogan. Have you read Kris Tschetter's book ?

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

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Seems like reasonable argument. BUT BUT BUT, I don't think that it's the case Mr Birly. There are just too many other variables from club to club. I believe it has been said/claimed that you need a different swing for every club.

You believe it's been said, Wulsy. Or do you actually believe it?

There might be other variables as you move between clubs, but so long as they don't vary in a random way - you might still expect to see a fairly regular progression.

 

[mgranato]

Yes, but maintenance of a much more difficult goal to achieve and perform than just consistency of the motion. As regards the plain consistency and repeatability, his swing was very low-maintenance one what is easily confirmed by people with a daily access to Hogan. Have you read Kris Tschetter's book ?

Cheers

Just pulling your leg a bit. Have not read KT's book.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Just pulling your leg a bit. Have not read KT's book.

Then I recommend the book highly to you. What the author says dispells some of myths around Hogan - with one of these on top - that his swing was a high-maintenance one.

Cheers

 

[wulsy]

Birly, I am a nobody so what I believe doesn't really matter to anyone but me and my son.

Conversely I am not very sensitive to folks who want to tell me I am talking shyte, because 99% of them are clueless, most of them being victims of the misinformation of the past and/or the misinformation of guru a, b or c. And the 1% who know better, maybe wrong on a lot of things. So I formulate my own opinions and remain open to the fact that I may be wrong.

But FWIW I do believe that you need to recognise that in order to produce a consistent ball flight you have to make a different swing every time you change club. If you're a good player on song you FEEEEEEL it in advance and make that swing. You need to "know yer clubs". If you're a victim of golf propaganda and clueless golf teachers you will try to make the same swing every time.

But, hey, that's just the opinion of an educated fool with golf on his mind.

 

[OLIVER1]

Hey Wulsy,
Whereabouts in Europe are you based?

 

[jimmyt]

I will bet Hogan walked on water too!!!!!

Just kidding.....I actually admire Hogan but some times I just get tired of reading how great he was at everything. Sometimes we need to learn from the past and move forward. Geez, we are on verge of 2012.

 

[drewyallop]

Then I recommend the book highly to you. What the author says dispells some of myths around Hogan - with one of these on top - that his swing was a high-maintenance one.

Cheers

I may have missed it but I didn't read anything about high or low swing maintenance in the book (badly written BTW). I believe most of the book was based on time she spent with Hogan after he retired when he had no competitive swing to maintain.

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

i'd be really curious to see how far these PGA guys (and girls) hit it off line on average with their drivers. basically, what defines "tour accuracy".

 

[mgranato]

i'd be really curious to see how far these PGA guys (and girls) hit it off line on average with their drivers. basically, what defines "tour accuracy".

The Tour provides those stats on its website. Interesting stuff to look at.

 

[mgranato]

I may have missed it but I didn't read anything about high or low swing maintenance in the book (badly written BTW). I believe most of the book was based on time she spent with Hogan after he retired when he had no competitive swing to maintain.

Shhhh. It's hard to grow a legend without a lack of evidence.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Well, if someone says several times that someone swings a few balls after some time without touching clubs for several weeks/months and the result is a great swing motion they all remember from his prime and producing excellent consistency that the man was famous for what does it tell you ?
It tells me without any explicite explanations that his swing and its results were easily repeatable without range time.

I agree that the book is not written by Goethe but it has a great historical value since the author could have been the closest golfing friend of Ben Hogan with an everyday access to the man in his late years.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

Birly, I am a nobody so what I believe doesn't really matter to anyone but me and my son.

Conversely I am not very sensitive to folks who want to tell me I am talking shyte, because 99% of them are clueless, most of them being victims of the misinformation of the past and/or the misinformation of guru a, b or c. And the 1% who know better, maybe wrong on a lot of things. So I formulate my own opinions and remain open to the fact that I may be wrong.

But FWIW I do believe that you need to recognise that in order to produce a consistent ball flight you have to make a different swing every time you change club. If you're a good player on song you FEEEEEEL it in advance and make that swing. You need to "know yer clubs". If you're a victim of golf propaganda and clueless golf teachers you will try to make the same swing every time.

But, hey, that's just the opinion of an educated fool with golf on his mind.

Fair enough.

But you don't think that the TM data, especially the smoothly progressive change in AoA, suggests that actually the swing does stay fairly consistent from club to club?

You have one input variable - length of club - that varies linearly, and an output which also varies linearly. Is there a reason to look for extra complexity?

Look at the change in clubhead speed through the irons. It's almost a perfect 2mph per club progression. Is that more or less surprising to you than the change in AoA?

Haven't you seen your own TM data through the bag? (I thought from some of your comments to, I think, SteveT that you must have) Maybe your 14 different swings have more in common than you think, or feeeel...

 

[mgranato]

It tells me without any explicite explanations that his swing and its results were easily repeatable without range time.

Solid hypothesis except for the fact that he spent nearly every daylight hour on the range. Something about something being "in the dirt"?

Who's the only player to have a truly proven low maintenance swing? This guy...

 

[drewyallop]

Well, if someone says several times that someone swings a few balls after some time without touching clubs for several weeks/months and the result is a great swing motion they all remember from his prime and producing excellent consistency that the man was famous for what does it tell you ?
It tells me without any explicite explanations that his swing and its results were easily repeatable without range time.

I agree that the book is not written by Goethe but it has a great historical value since the author could have been the closest golfing friend of Ben Hogan with an everyday access to the man in his late years.

Cheers

Good point Daruisz. I am not sure what it tells me but if your assumption is that he could pick up a club after several months off and play a round with the consistency and length of his pro days then I agree the swing is low maintenance. But I don't see evidence of this in the book.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Solid hypothesis except for the fact that he spent nearly every daylight hour on the range. Something about something being "in the dirt"?

OK. In the view of a fact that he did not have a club in his hands for months or even years (as the author describes in the book) - no matter if he had spent 50 years almost everyday on a range several years before - either you must believe in a very long term muscle memory (or similar crap) or you need to accept the fact that a setup dependent swing motion is a very low-maintenance one. Actually, I know it is on my own example since some time.
A high-maintenance swing would need serious adjusting after only a few days leisure time, I believe - and certainly would not produce great results from the first swings after the break. Correct me if I am wrong, please.

The sad truth is that some people have hard time in believing that Hogan had a low-maintenance swing because it suggests very clearly that they themselves do not know a darn thing how to swing a club playing and practising on the range very frequently, changing teachers often, analyzing every microscale thing they encounter in the net, etc. - and still suck in consistency and repeatability while having pretensions to be great golfers.

Last post on this topic from me - already too much treadjacked again. Sorry.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

Good point Daruisz. I am not sure what it tells me but if your assumption is that he could pick up a club after several months off and play a round with the consistency and length of his pro days then I agree the swing is low maintenance. But I don't see evidence of this in the book.

Sorry, one more post deserving the answer (probably you posted it when I was posting my last one). Just quickly - p.58-59: "He wasn't hitting at all by then[...]He grabbed my 6-iron and without warming up or taking a single practice swing he hit a perfect iron shot that fought its way through the wind curving from left to right[...]He was onto me but he hit another exactly like the first. Then he hit one more [...].
There are two or three similar little stories in the book.

Cheers