Trackman data: PGA and LPGA Averages

[mgranato]

I used to be able to tie my shoes without getting winded, but I can still go out on the basketball court and make 3 point shots for as long as you would care to watch. And I touch a basketball maybe once every 18 months. I practiced that motion for 15 years every single day. The question is, is it the motion itself, or the countless hours of repetition that created a motion so second nature that I couldn't forget it?

Hogan could still make "good looking" swings into the ocean precisely because he hit balls every day for 50 years. Not because his motion was intrinsically automatic. If he had any automation, it came from mind numbing repetition. When you are talented enough and hard working, it is possible to make an athletic move look automatic. Habit over automation.

For the record, I'm under no illusions that a good looking shot at the "Y" is the same as still being able to perform said motion "under the gun". Hogan fans shouldn't be either.

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

Solid hypothesis except for the fact that he spent nearly every daylight hour on the range. Something about something being "in the dirt"?

Who's the only player to have a truly proven low maintenance swing? This guy...

good point. maybe we should all be studying Lietzke. that story about him and the rotten banana is one of my favorites.

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

i just crunched the clubhead speed numbers on PGAtour.com site and it looks like the average for the 186 guys listed is 114.1 mph.

PGATOUR.com - PGA TOUR Statistics

 

[Todd Dugan]

Comments on the Tour average AA.............So if the average with a PW is -5*, then the upper end of the range is what, -8*? Now who is really hitting down more than that? I don't understand this concern that hitting down too much is actually a common problem among "regular" players.

Also, what would explain the fact that LPGA AA's are less descending than PGA? I offer that it is because the males create more forceful swings, with a stronger weight shift to the left side and a stronger, later straightening of the right arm. This keeps the shaft lagging behind the left arm more at impact, which, all else the same, produces a more descending AA.

Can it be "over-done"? Sure. Is it prevalant? No.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Is what prevalent?

 

[mgranato]

Also, what would explain the fact that LPGA AA's are less descending than PGA? I offer that it is because the males create more forceful swings, with a stronger weight shift to the left side and a stronger, later straightening of the right arm. This keeps the shaft lagging behind the left arm more at impact, which, all else the same, produces a more descending AA.

My accounting for the difference is the large disparity in average height between the two tours. I'm guessing it's in the 6"-8" range, at least. Longer clubs lend themselves to shallower AAs, and the girls play with longer clubs (relative to the height ratio) through the bag.

Of course, I could be way off.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The is an optimum launch angle for every ball speed with the irons.

The harder you hit it, the lower you can launch it.

 

[ZAP]

Bruce is the man!

 

[drewyallop]

"Averages can be deceiving"

Very good point.

We need the median and standard deviation.

 

[drewyallop]

Bruce is the man!

Thanks for bringing up Bruce mgranato. And why do we see so little analysis of him? What was his "secret".

 

[Dariusz J.]

What was his "secret".

As far as I can see - performing an entirely subconscious-friendly motion with OTT from inside as the protagonist. I should have look deeper at Lietzke's motion before and use him as one of the greatest illustration for my theories.

Cheers

 

[ekennedy]

Thanks for bringing up Bruce mgranato. And why do we see so little analysis of him? What was his "secret".

His secret was eliminating the left side of every course, the discipline to stick to his shot and understand his own limitations and most importantly... his ability to put golf in its proper perspective

 

[Robbohank]

Thanks for bringing up Bruce mgranato. And why do we see so little analysis of him? What was his "secret".

Also wonder why he played so little on the Champions Tour. Did he dis-like the game that much that he just said "no-mas"? Perhaps the most "means to an end" player in golf history, not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Also wonder why he played so little on the Champions Tour. Did he dis-like the game that much that he just said "no-mas"? Perhaps the most "means to an end" player in golf history, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'd say he liked his family so much that he said "no mas"

 

[drewyallop]

As far as I can see - performing an entirely subconscious-friendly motion with OTT from inside as the protagonist. I should have look deeper at Lietzke's motion before and use him as one of the greatest illustration for my theories.

Cheers

Go for it D.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Is what prevalent?

An Attack Angle which is outside of, on the more descending side, the range of AA's of most PGA Tour pros. I know that there are some real good male players who could benefit from shallowing out their Attack Angle a bit..........Jesper Parnevik comes to mind. But among the "general" golfing population...................I'd say its pretty rare. Besides, regardless of your release and spinloft, you can always adjust your AA with ball position.

 

[drewyallop]

His secret was eliminating the left side of every course, the discipline to stick to his shot and understand his own limitations and most importantly... his ability to put golf in its proper perspective

I like it ekennedy and Kevin. Perspective: No question that he came to the course with, dare I say it, a certain serenity. Golf seemed to be only a small part of a larger life. Could it be that this allowed him to play with fewer of those demons, the ones that get in the way of just golfing?

No matter how much scientific golf knowledge we get there is still going to be much that remains a mystery. Wonderful game inn'it?

 

[Robbohank]

I'd say he liked his family so much that he said "no mas"

Quite probably. He likely gave back the least to the game relative to what he received. Lets not forget about his cars!

Again, nothing wrong with it, but he was one pro that apparently could care less about the game itself imo. Seems like such a waste for a guy that may have truly had the "secret".

 

[natep]

Perhaps the most "means to an end" player in golf history, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I think Byron Nelson might have earned this title. Retired at 32 in 1946, one year after winning 11 in a row and 18 total wins on the season (with a 68.37 scoring average). Once he had enough money to buy the ranch he wanted, that was it. I've been studying a lot about him, he was amazing. If he hadn't retired so young we might have never even heard of Hogan.

 

[JEREMY5577]

I think Byron Nelson might have earned this title. Retired at 32 in 1946, one year after winning 11 in a row and 18 total wins on the season (with a 68.37 scoring average). Once he had enough money to buy the ranch he wanted, that was it. I've been studying a lot about him, he was amazing. If he hadn't retired so young we might have never even heard of Hogan.

natep, have you read a particular book you would suggest?