U.S. Open Shows Gimmicks and Copy Cats Not The Way - by Brian Manzella

[tongzilla]

Logically if haney is responsible for tiger's bad striking he is also responsible for tiger's good striking,

Why is that logical? Can't you argue (proving it is another matter though) that Tiger's good striking is due to his innate talent for producing his desired ball flight, and this talent is constantly fighting against Haney's coaching? When he is hitting it well, he's not actually doing what Haney is teaching (even though he may be trying to)...and the more he swings like Haney's model, the worse his striking gets. That's also a plausible hypothesis.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Why is that logical? Can't you argue (proving it is another matter though) that Tiger's good striking is due to his innate talent for producing his desired ball flight, and this talent is constantly fighting against Haney's coaching? When he is hitting it well, he's not actually doing what Haney is teaching (even though he may be trying to)...and the more he swings like Haney's model, the worse his striking gets. That's also a plausible hypothesis.

I tend to agree with Tong and the reason is this:

Everytime i have see Tiger do EXACTLY what Haney wants the shot ususally ends up 1 of 2 ways:

1) A pretty bad "wipe" meaning body is very open and so is clubface so you get a very high weak fade
2) A shank


He doesn't do 1) much anymore because he's figured out he can't be that laid off and hit good shots. He still does 2) occasionally, even on national TV. I've seen him do it twice (and i don't watch all the tournaments).

I have never watched or heard of Tiger coming close to shanking anything until he started working with Haney.

 

[Cope]

Brian's analysis

TIGER
I agree with Brian's analysis of Tiger. He has the experience and total game and would have an easier time if his swing were better. His shots seemed to be "willed" to their locations rather than executed. He often looked out of sequence or off balance. Certainly not the quality of mastery he has shown in the past.
FURYK
His swing looped even more when he came out on tour. He has said that he really had not looked at his swing before he was on TV all the time. His father was happy with the results and thought most major winners had signature (unique) swings.
BADDS
He had one of those snowball rounds which are most often the result of a loss of poise and composure. This was his first real chance at a major. Best finish previous was in the twenties. Most guys get knocked down the first time they stick their necks out. Watson, Stewart, etc. Mike Weir shot 80 playing in the final group with Tiger at the PGA and went on to win the Masters without changing much. Even if Badds does not recognize it, I believe that he was not yet ready to come through under that much pressure. Most players have to get burned a few times before they learn to get it done. Maybe Badds should have stuck with his early teachers and never gone to Leadbetter (of course), but he is making his way back with P&B. I disagree that he should make wholesale changes to the methods that earned him a two shot lead going into the final round.
CABRERA
NBC said he was known for having a hard time getting it to the house. I was inside the ropes with him at Southern Hills (2001?). He was very impressive there the first two rounds. Long straight good touch. He looked basically the same then as now. He did not make wholesale changes because he had failed under the gun. He just got it done this time, and it will be much easier next time with this success behind him.

Watson once said Byron Nelson taught him to close, "You don't have to play the best, you just have to shoot the lowest score." It freed him up.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Have you ever watched a Japaneese telecast of golf? Now that is the way to show a golf tournament. They have high speed cameras everywhere and get all kinds of great shots on video.

I could not agree with you more. Apparently Japanese people are way, way, smarter than americans when it comes to golf coverage. Miles ahead. It's like a different world watching Japanese produced golf coverage, you know the exact layout of every hole, the wind, the break on the green, the yardage, the club, exactly where the hole is, and about 5 different views and replays clearly showing everything that happens. As opposed to NBC's US Open where you get a grainy view from a weird angle with barely any of the necessary info provided, all while Johnny Miller and Gary Koch have the dumbest most pretentious conversation known to man.

 

[hcw]

Body changes-> Swing changes

Tiger Woods once had such a swing. He won the 1997 Masters with it. Then Butch Harmon added some new moves, and by all accounts, improved on Tiger's "natural" swing. In my opinion—and all of this is just my opinion folks—as Tiger got further away from his '97 action and closer to Butch's ideas, he started going backward. Also Butch couldn't fix the right-to-right shot.

a couple of thoughts/questions...

1) tiger has really bulked up since 1997...could this have made it necessary for him to swing differently and did this really start to emerge around the time he was having trouble with Butch's teaching?

2) wasn't there some issue with cartilage in one of his knees and could that have also caused need for swing change?

 

[magic43]

Another thought about GIR stats. Being #1 in GIR doesn't mean much on a USGA Open setup unless your shots are finishing in the correct place on the green and most of the time that is below the hole where you can be a bit more aggressive and not so precise with the line and speed. Tiger even said as much in his post round interview. He stated that nearly all week he was in the wrong place on the greens and having big breaking putts or downhill putts for birdie. Not a high percentage of making those, so you have to sometimes take stats with a grain of salt.

 

[protagonist]

Perhaps Tiger just isn't as smart as people give him credit for.

 

[bendet3]

all while Johnny Miller and Gary Koch have the dumbest most pretentious conversation known to man.

I had a good laugh at that one. Never ceases to amaze me that every missed putt is either a push or a pull. Never a mis-read of the break, etc.

 

[JimCooper]

Why do pros that have a proven record need someone to change their swing?

I am not a pro but common since says "if it aint broke don't fix it".

What T.W. thought he was going to get better by changing his swing?

If I was making the money he made I would show the "trainers" to the door.

 

[mpro]

One of the things I like best and think is most important is the way Cabrera, Furyk, who told me, "that's the only way i can do it," and Trevino, and Hogan (very different for his day) and Nicklaus and Palmer--as I think about it, this list could get VERY long--stuck with what got them to the world class level and perhaps only got better at owning their own swings rather than changing them. I think a lot of tour players get out there only to lose their card because they don't believe in their OWN method enough.

"The ball will listen if you know how to talk to it."

 

[mb6606]

I could not agree with you more. Apparently Japanese people are way, way, smarter than americans when it comes to golf coverage. Miles ahead. It's like a different world watching Japanese produced golf coverage, you know the exact layout of every hole, the wind, the break on the green, the yardage, the club, exactly where the hole is, and about 5 different views and replays clearly showing everything that happens. As opposed to NBC's US Open where you get a grainy view from a weird angle with barely any of the necessary info provided, all while Johnny Miller and Gary Koch have the dumbest most pretentious conversation known to man.

Could it be the US networks spend their budget $ on the talking heads?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I could not agree with you more. Apparently Japanese people are way, way, smarter than americans when it comes to golf coverage. Miles ahead. It's like a different world watching Japanese produced golf coverage, you know the exact layout of every hole, the wind, the break on the green, the yardage, the club, exactly where the hole is, and about 5 different views and replays clearly showing everything that happens. As opposed to NBC's US Open where you get a grainy view from a weird angle with barely any of the necessary info provided, all while Johnny Miller and Gary Koch have the dumbest most pretentious conversation known to man.

It's all about THE MONEY. Golf is HUUUUUUUUGE in Asia. It's a rich man's game because the land is so valuable that there aren't a lot of golf courses and thus where there are courses you have better have the dough to play on them.

So because Asian TV knows they will get the ratings for their events they spend the money for all the toys, because they are getting the viewers. Doesn't happen in America. The dollars and ratings just aren't there, well unless Tiger is in the final group LOL.

 

[kshoren05]

I have to agree with you Brian, Tiger has got the weak grip release action this just awkward to watch. Just for kicks I threw video from the 2000 US Open and British and there is no question in my mind that that was Tiger swinging his best. This funky action he has developed with Haney is questionable and the only reason I think it works is because Tiger can make any kind of swing work.

I think the one thing we can not account for in this discussion is the psychological factor. Even if Aaron Baddeley said he wasn't nervous going into the final round my perception was that he was psychologically done after the first hole especially the way we waved and smiled at the crowd.

Anyhow, this makes 2 straight majors that someone just played and struck the ball flat out better than Tiger. Tiger seems to be hanging in there by pure determination and grinding it out. I hope he gets things figured out because golf is a lot more fun to watch when he is knocking pins down.

 

[birdie_man]

Man..........I like Johnny Miller.....

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well....

Johnny Miller is a least somewhat entertaining. The rest of them couldn't get 56 members on a web site, much less 56 hundred.

The angles are terrible, the STUPID IDEA OF IGNORING CERTAIN GOLFERS is totally ridiculous.

David Toms was one 25 footer, and one birdie, and one Angel Cabrera 3-putt from a PLAYOFF.

And you didn't see him hit a SHOT from #1 to #17's tee shot.

This is very common.

One day someone will WIN this way.

As far a Tiger being "messed up" by Haney, I said NOTHING of the kind. I just said he needs to ADJUST his pattern. I do believe Haney won't, but easily could.

Aaron Badds—same thing. The teachers need to adjust, but my guess is they won't.

Haney and "The Boys" will just beat their preferred patterns further into their guy's head.

 

[birdie_man]

I had no idea Toms was that close....

BTW they had Chris Berman (NFL announcer) on for a while......I thought he did a pretty good job. Doesn't know golf like Miller does (a lot of the time) so he doesn't have the insights....but he kept the show rolling along nicely and I didn't hear him say anything DUMB....

.....which is a commendable feat in itself........

 

[holeout]

Berman's commentary

I had no idea Toms was that close....

BTW they had Chris Berman (NFL announcer) on for a while......I thought he did a pretty good job. Doesn't know golf like Miller does (a lot of the time) so he doesn't have the insights....but he kept the show rolling along nicely and I didn't hear him say anything DUMB....

.....which is a commendable feat in itself........

Berman is at least self-deprecating. He knows he doesn't know golf, and knows that we know he doesn't know golf. So what does he do? Throw in commentary related to other sports.

Did anyone catch his commentary when Toms and his caddie were reading a putt? He said they were in "I-formation."

Classic.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I had no idea Toms was that close....

BTW they had Chris Berman (NFL announcer) on for a while......I thought he did a pretty good job. Doesn't know golf like Miller does (a lot of the time) so he doesn't have the insights....but he kept the show rolling along nicely and I didn't hear him say anything DUMB....

.....which is a commendable feat in itself........

What are you on so i can have some? Berman was absolutely horrible and has no place in golf. Golf is GOLF, not football, baseball, or any other sport he wants to talk about.

 

[Toolish]

...
This is the U.S.Open. And thank goodness Badds—a guy leaning one way on practice swings and another on his real swing, closing his eyes for extended period of time to "visualize" when all the great "visualizers" did no such thing, and using the old Bob Rotella trick of making your putting backswing before your eyes return to the ball—didn't win. It would have set golf back 20 years.
...

Probably biased being an Aussie...

I agree on the stack and tilt drills not reflecting the swing BUT to visualising and the putting are Badds from day dot. He was doing it when he won the Australian Open as a 19 y.o. amatuer and has done it ever since. His putting is the strength of his game so why attack it?

You commend a player for owning his swing, and then degrade the next when he owns his putting routine...I don't get it?

 

[chrisfx811]

Well, after hearing that ratings were up something like 30% from last year's US Open final round coverage, I have a feeling that the Tiger-centric coverage won't change anytime soon.

I'll admit it was odd hearing Berman doing some coverage, but I found some of it humorous. Johnny Miller is on his way to 'jumping the shark' for me.

I still enjoy Feherty, McCord, and Faldo.