This is supposedly a quote from the book...I was hoping that someone who has the book could help us out.
Weight shift
- Thread starter mandrin
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This is supposedly a quote from the book...I was hoping that someone who has the book could help us out.
shootin4par
New
well bman, if it is no shift at all I will buy dinner for everyone here, I know I am going out on a limb there, but I dont think it will be that one.If it is "no shift at all" I'll buy you dinner. Neil.
If it is even CLOSE to the Kool-Aid Tripod, I'll buy you lunch.
Mandrin, we are looking for OPTIMUM FORCE!
and it is not the kool aid man, that is actually reverse weight shift. cause on the kool aid man the weight shifts forward, which sends the kool aid running out the pitcher, then the weight must shift back to stop the flowing of kool aid from spilling out of the glass.
by looking at improper weight shift we notice what not to do so I am providing a link, please note the improper weight shift in the second pitcher and notice the results, luckily someone was there to catch the error.
http://www.uoregon.edu/~jbritto2/Comics/PA Kool Aid.jpg
Bman says dont drink the kool aid, I say dont spill it.
also, if you dont like someones teaching methods and philosophies please call it something like flav o aid, you all remember the cheap imitation kool aid, right? when we was young and on food stamps 20 cents was hard to come by so for ten cents we got flav o aid. SO any time we had kool aid it was a treat. Please bman, dont disrespect the kool aid, especially purpleasouras rex, drinking that was like christmas in august.
mandrin
New
Weight shift in back swing
There are many elements associated with the notion of weight shift in a golf swing, one of them being the weight shift in the back swing. A typical and common golf instruction is:
“Also, in order to make the most of your natural weight shift, you should keep that right knee flex. This will create a lot of built up energy, just waiting to be released through the ball.”
It could be argued that the term “shift’ is misleading. There is much more of a rotation going on. The arms being in front at address and ending up more to the trail side of the golfer will by themselves cause considerable weight shift to the trail side without any ‘shift ‘ per se. Even if the head rotates only a few inches to the right in the back swing will also add quite a bit to the weight shift.
There is also the very widespread common notion that we gather energy/power in the back swing to be released in the downs wing. This is also part of TGM with the notion of power accumulators which are accumulating power in the back swing. I feel that this stems from the alarm signals created by our nervous system in a full back swing, which causes considerably strain in various joints, and our built in reflexes are screaming for this to be released. Hence, the down swing is experienced like a release of energy whilst it is actually more a reflex action to release pain and discomfort.
So what is the back swing good for? Well for any object to attain a certain speed it needs a bit of space to have the time, for a given force/torque applied, to attain such speed. Young supple players take a long back swing whilst stocky players with limited flexibility will usually compensate for the lack of space created in the back swing by injecting additional power using various muscles.
There is another aspect to the back swing. A golfer brings the arms and club closer to main the axis of rotation in the backswing reducing this way the moment of inertia. In the down swing this allows, for a given torque, to create more readily angular velocity and hence kinetic energy. Once the centrifugal torque starts forcing the clubhead outwards this kinetic energy will then start to flow out towards the clubhead.
In TGM one feels an ambiguity with the generous use of the word power associated with the power package and the various power accumulators and yet power accumulators are also though to be the out of line condition of levers. It definitely feels that someone uses science here in a rather intuitive way. Associating the angles of levers with moment of inertia rather than with power would have been more appropriate.
Hence, I see two essential reasons for the ‘weight shift’ in the back swing. Creating space/time and reducing moment of inertia of the golfer/club ensemble.
There are many elements associated with the notion of weight shift in a golf swing, one of them being the weight shift in the back swing. A typical and common golf instruction is:
“Also, in order to make the most of your natural weight shift, you should keep that right knee flex. This will create a lot of built up energy, just waiting to be released through the ball.”
It could be argued that the term “shift’ is misleading. There is much more of a rotation going on. The arms being in front at address and ending up more to the trail side of the golfer will by themselves cause considerable weight shift to the trail side without any ‘shift ‘ per se. Even if the head rotates only a few inches to the right in the back swing will also add quite a bit to the weight shift.
There is also the very widespread common notion that we gather energy/power in the back swing to be released in the downs wing. This is also part of TGM with the notion of power accumulators which are accumulating power in the back swing. I feel that this stems from the alarm signals created by our nervous system in a full back swing, which causes considerably strain in various joints, and our built in reflexes are screaming for this to be released. Hence, the down swing is experienced like a release of energy whilst it is actually more a reflex action to release pain and discomfort.
So what is the back swing good for? Well for any object to attain a certain speed it needs a bit of space to have the time, for a given force/torque applied, to attain such speed. Young supple players take a long back swing whilst stocky players with limited flexibility will usually compensate for the lack of space created in the back swing by injecting additional power using various muscles.
There is another aspect to the back swing. A golfer brings the arms and club closer to main the axis of rotation in the backswing reducing this way the moment of inertia. In the down swing this allows, for a given torque, to create more readily angular velocity and hence kinetic energy. Once the centrifugal torque starts forcing the clubhead outwards this kinetic energy will then start to flow out towards the clubhead.
In TGM one feels an ambiguity with the generous use of the word power associated with the power package and the various power accumulators and yet power accumulators are also though to be the out of line condition of levers. It definitely feels that someone uses science here in a rather intuitive way. Associating the angles of levers with moment of inertia rather than with power would have been more appropriate.
Hence, I see two essential reasons for the ‘weight shift’ in the back swing. Creating space/time and reducing moment of inertia of the golfer/club ensemble.
i think the no shift swing wier was talking about was more of a staying centered or not changing the angle of your right leg on the backswing and then transfering your weight on the downswing not really a reverse pivot basically how hogan swung i guess you could call it the hogan reverse pivot.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The "Hover" Swing.
The big fad on Tour.
Hover over the ball. Bennet/Plummer, Hardy, etc.
Did Hogan "hover"?
At times, yes. Not on really full shots though.
What do I think about it? I think it is SUB-obtimum from a force point-of-view, but it does have a effect on several other components.
If you can STRESS the shaft and WALLOP the ball with a sub-optimum pivot, go right ahead. If it helps you "make the club work like a club," do it.
But, I sure hope all of the teachers who think this is the answer for 100% OF ALL GOLFERS—TOUR caliber and otherwise—get the word out. Shout from the mountain top: "Hover."
I'll clean up all their mess.
The big fad on Tour.
Hover over the ball. Bennet/Plummer, Hardy, etc.
Did Hogan "hover"?
At times, yes. Not on really full shots though.
What do I think about it? I think it is SUB-obtimum from a force point-of-view, but it does have a effect on several other components.
If you can STRESS the shaft and WALLOP the ball with a sub-optimum pivot, go right ahead. If it helps you "make the club work like a club," do it.
But, I sure hope all of the teachers who think this is the answer for 100% OF ALL GOLFERS—TOUR caliber and otherwise—get the word out. Shout from the mountain top: "Hover."
I'll clean up all their mess.
shootin4par
New
mandrin you said
"There is also the very widespread common notion that we gather energy/power in the back swing to be released in the downs wing. This is also part of TGM with the notion of power accumulators which are accumulating power in the back swing. I feel that this stems from the alarm signals created by our nervous system in a full back swing, which causes considerably strain in various joints, and our built in reflexes are screaming for this to be released. Hence, the down swing is experienced like a release of energy whilst it is actually more a reflex action to release pain and discomfort"
muscles in our body do two things, they contract and relax. when a muscle contracts, if you let the contraction go, it wants to go back to its natural state and it relaxes even if we did not strain it to its yield point. so if the left wrist is in a contracted state, cocked, (but actually muscles in the hand, forearms, and some in the upper arms as well are contracted). release this contraction and what happens, the cock in the left hand/wrist is released. cocking and uncocking the wrist on a horizontal axis gives speed to the clubhead without gravity assistance. So now put the left wrist in a cocked position again and NOw add the right hand on there that is relaxed the whole time the left hand in contracted. so we now have a contracted left hand and a relaxed right hand. Then when the left hand contraction is released, relaxation, add a right hand contraction that assist the releasing of the uncocking and you now have not one but two assisting muscle movement moving the clubhead.
long story short
on the backswing we contract a certain amount of muscles while others are to stay relaxed, then on the downswing we relax the contracted muscles and contract the relaxed muscles, since solely relaxing muscles will give us some speed, the contraction of the opposite msucles, to assist us in the forward direction adds another speed or power source. add this to having things like gravity, cetrifigal force, parametric acceleration or all the numeous scientific things and we have a lot of sped. Have the wrong muscles contracted and relaxed and do not let laws of motion assist us, but rather we fight against the laws of motion. On the backswing we dont coil, we contract.
take a hammer and to bring it up we flex our bicep, tricep remains relaxed. if we simply relax the bicep, we would be nailing for a long time cause gravity will not be assisting us that much. to get speed in the hammer we must flex bicep on the ay up, flex tricep on the way down.
and one last thing, at impact if we have the right hand and forearm contracted, even in 3 barrel swinging with no right arm thrust, we have more mass behind the ball and ball goes farther The trick is how do we do that, like homer kelly said, the mind is in the hands.
Biomechanics, kinesiology and science sure are fun, sure has taken out some of the guesswork. Instructors would do themselves well to learn about these things, the truth of the golf swing
"There is also the very widespread common notion that we gather energy/power in the back swing to be released in the downs wing. This is also part of TGM with the notion of power accumulators which are accumulating power in the back swing. I feel that this stems from the alarm signals created by our nervous system in a full back swing, which causes considerably strain in various joints, and our built in reflexes are screaming for this to be released. Hence, the down swing is experienced like a release of energy whilst it is actually more a reflex action to release pain and discomfort"
muscles in our body do two things, they contract and relax. when a muscle contracts, if you let the contraction go, it wants to go back to its natural state and it relaxes even if we did not strain it to its yield point. so if the left wrist is in a contracted state, cocked, (but actually muscles in the hand, forearms, and some in the upper arms as well are contracted). release this contraction and what happens, the cock in the left hand/wrist is released. cocking and uncocking the wrist on a horizontal axis gives speed to the clubhead without gravity assistance. So now put the left wrist in a cocked position again and NOw add the right hand on there that is relaxed the whole time the left hand in contracted. so we now have a contracted left hand and a relaxed right hand. Then when the left hand contraction is released, relaxation, add a right hand contraction that assist the releasing of the uncocking and you now have not one but two assisting muscle movement moving the clubhead.
long story short
on the backswing we contract a certain amount of muscles while others are to stay relaxed, then on the downswing we relax the contracted muscles and contract the relaxed muscles, since solely relaxing muscles will give us some speed, the contraction of the opposite msucles, to assist us in the forward direction adds another speed or power source. add this to having things like gravity, cetrifigal force, parametric acceleration or all the numeous scientific things and we have a lot of sped. Have the wrong muscles contracted and relaxed and do not let laws of motion assist us, but rather we fight against the laws of motion. On the backswing we dont coil, we contract.
take a hammer and to bring it up we flex our bicep, tricep remains relaxed. if we simply relax the bicep, we would be nailing for a long time cause gravity will not be assisting us that much. to get speed in the hammer we must flex bicep on the ay up, flex tricep on the way down.
and one last thing, at impact if we have the right hand and forearm contracted, even in 3 barrel swinging with no right arm thrust, we have more mass behind the ball and ball goes farther
The trick is how do we do that, like homer kelly said, the mind is in the hands. Biomechanics, kinesiology and science sure are fun, sure has taken out some of the guesswork. Instructors would do themselves well to learn about these things, the truth of the golf swing
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mandrin
New
shootin4par
Your post is clearly meant to be in reaction to the notion of generating power in the back swing. But I don’t see in your post discussion of this notion of power in the back swing and if you possibly agree or disagree.
I get the impression that you feel that relaxing muscles produce speed. Are you sure that is what you meant to say?
“on the backswing we contract a certain amount of muscles while others are to stay relaxed, then on the downswing we relax the contracted muscles and contract the relaxed muscles, since solely relaxing muscles will give us some speed, the contraction of the opposite msucles, to assist us in the forward direction adds another speed or power source…….::
We know that mucles work in antagonistic pairs, one contracts whilst the other relaxes. However mucles can’t strectch by themselves, they have to be stretched by their partner, the contracting muscle of the pair. Hence the relaxing mucles don’t contribute to generating torque and hence speed - this is done by the contracting muscle.
“ one last thing, at impact if we have the right hand and forearm contracted, even in 3 barrel swinging with no right arm thrust, we have more mass behind the ball and ball goes farther”
Is the right arm increasing somehow the effective mass of the clubhead?
Your post is clearly meant to be in reaction to the notion of generating power in the back swing. But I don’t see in your post discussion of this notion of power in the back swing and if you possibly agree or disagree.
I get the impression that you feel that relaxing muscles produce speed. Are you sure that is what you meant to say?
“on the backswing we contract a certain amount of muscles while others are to stay relaxed, then on the downswing we relax the contracted muscles and contract the relaxed muscles, since solely relaxing muscles will give us some speed, the contraction of the opposite msucles, to assist us in the forward direction adds another speed or power source…….::
We know that mucles work in antagonistic pairs, one contracts whilst the other relaxes. However mucles can’t strectch by themselves, they have to be stretched by their partner, the contracting muscle of the pair. Hence the relaxing mucles don’t contribute to generating torque and hence speed - this is done by the contracting muscle.
“ one last thing, at impact if we have the right hand and forearm contracted, even in 3 barrel swinging with no right arm thrust, we have more mass behind the ball and ball goes farther”
Is the right arm increasing somehow the effective mass of the clubhead?
....
I think what s4par means is the difference between slapping your partner on the ear with a limp dick or a stiff dick.. Which one transfers the most amount of bodily energy to the ear?...
“ one last thing, at impact if we have the right hand and forearm contracted, even in 3 barrel swinging with no right arm thrust, we have more mass behind the ball and ball goes farther”
Is the right arm increasing somehow the effective mass of the clubhead?
I think what s4par means is the difference between slapping your partner on the ear with a limp dick or a stiff dick.. Which one transfers the most amount of bodily energy to the ear?...
shootin4par
New
for the majority of people they can do chin ups better with their palms facing them rather then away from the. Most people have stronger biceps rather then triceps. with that being said go get a couple of two by fours and tap a nail into it. Now to do this you would have to hit the nails on a horizontal plane. grip the hammer and hit the nail with a contraction of the bicep. I know it would take a few times to hit it square but all you need is one square hit. Now cotract the bicep, bend the elbow and then contract the tricep to deliver the blow. The relaxing of the bicep along with the contraction of the tricep would increase the speed more so then just a contraction phase alone. even though the bicep is stronger for most people the tricep blow would deliver more energy because it is coupled with a relaxation of a tense muscle. puttmad pretty much summed up what I was saying on the other point. Although I would not have put it in those terms.
would a golf club swung by a string hit the ball as far as one swung by a person?
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mandrin
New
“It's all about the back swing”
shootin4par
I am rather interested in your ideas about the back swing. Do you feel, like many, that one gathers power in the back swing?
The concept of effective striking mass is a different subject altogether and quite extensively discussed in previous posts.
for the majority of people they can do chin ups better with their palms facing them rather then away from the. Most people have stronger biceps rather then triceps. with that being said go get a couple of two by fours and tap a nail into it. Now to do this you would have to hit the nails on a horizontal plane. grip the hammer and hit the nail with a contraction of the bicep. I know it would take a few times to hit it square but all you need is one square hit. Now cotract the bicep, bend the elbow and then contract the tricep to deliver the blow. The relaxing of the bicep along with the contraction of the tricep would increase the speed more so then just a contraction phase alone. even though the bicep is stronger for most people the tricep blow would deliver more energy because it is coupled with a relaxation of a tense muscle. puttmad pretty much summed up what I was saying on the other point. Although I would not have put it in those terms.
shootin4par
I am rather interested in your ideas about the back swing. Do you feel, like many, that one gathers power in the back swing?
The concept of effective striking mass is a different subject altogether and quite extensively discussed in previous posts.
shootin4par
New
mandrin
say you cut out your tricep and only had a bicep and you contracted that, if you relaxed that contraction would the musce not move at all? I will search for effective mass,
thanks
neil
say you cut out your tricep and only had a bicep and you contracted that, if you relaxed that contraction would the musce not move at all? I will search for effective mass,
thanks
neil
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
for the majority of people they can do chin ups better with their palms facing them rather then away from the. Most people have stronger biceps rather then triceps. with that being said go get a couple of two by fours and tap a nail into it. Now to do this you would have to hit the nails on a horizontal plane. grip the hammer and hit the nail with a contraction of the bicep. I know it would take a few times to hit it square but all you need is one square hit. Now cotract the bicep, bend the elbow and then contract the tricep to deliver the blow. The relaxing of the bicep along with the contraction of the tricep would increase the speed more so then just a contraction phase alone. even though the bicep is stronger for most people the tricep blow would deliver more energy because it is coupled with a relaxation of a tense muscle. puttmad pretty much summed up what I was saying on the other point. Although I would not have put it in those terms.
Weather your palms are facing you or away from you when doing chin ups, you are still using the biceps and not the triceps as you implied. Or, did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?
And, the triceps are stronger than the biceps
shootin4par
New
I messed up on that one, you are right about using biceps on chin ups with hands either way.
mandrin
New
Tom, are you sure?
http://science-class.net/Anatomy/Support/Bones as levers.pdf
http://www.pinkmonkey.com/studyguides/subjects/biology-edited/chap21/b2121201.asp
"The biceps, which flex the arm are larger and more powerful than the triceps which extends it. "
shootin4par
New
mandrin,
read most all of the thread on effective mass. true or false? a clubhead on a limp string or ridgid shaft makes no difference in ball speed. True correct?
thanks
neil
read most all of the thread on effective mass. true or false? a clubhead on a limp string or ridgid shaft makes no difference in ball speed. True correct?
thanks
neil
....
So what would happen if your shaft broke off just before impact?... Would the ball go as far?......
So what would happen if your shaft broke off just before impact?... Would the ball go as far?......
mandrin
New
shootin4par, puttmad,
This thread is about weight shift, so let’s finally start talking about it.
However I am ready to make a fair deal. You post your opinion about weight shift in general or perhaps what you think the back swing is all about, you read through the threads below and I will then, if you are still interested, give you the answer to your question, but in a separate thread to prevent high jacking of this one. Golf Impact Physics
Real physics in action
Effective striking mass of clubhead
A HELPING HAND
Sustaining the line of compression
Impact shaft loading
Free-wheeling through impact
puttmad
I surmise that the ball would go as far if the shaft broke just before impact - as long as the shaft break doesn't affect the forward velocity of the clubhead. In other words, if the clubhead is travelling at 100mph one millisecond before impact, and the shaft breaks just before impact in such a way that the break doesn't affect the clubhead's forward speed, then the clubhead should still be travelling at approximately 100mph a millisecond after the break.
The only other factor to consider is whether ball compression during impact negatively influences the clubhead in such a way that energy is lost if the clubhead is not rigidly attached to a clubshaft. Has that beeen studied?
Jeff.
I surmise that the ball would go as far if the shaft broke just before impact - as long as the shaft break doesn't affect the forward velocity of the clubhead. In other words, if the clubhead is travelling at 100mph one millisecond before impact, and the shaft breaks just before impact in such a way that the break doesn't affect the clubhead's forward speed, then the clubhead should still be travelling at approximately 100mph a millisecond after the break.
The only other factor to consider is whether ball compression during impact negatively influences the clubhead in such a way that energy is lost if the clubhead is not rigidly attached to a clubshaft. Has that beeen studied?
Jeff.
....
OK. My final word on weight shift.
Weight shift is the body's attempt to remain in balance when various bodily components (in this case the hands and arms) are being moved outside the natural center of balance...
In other words , weight shift is something done as a reaction, not an action, therefore is a complimentary action...
Weight shift should support the intent of the hands (to apply maximum force to the ball) and therefore must be integrated as a supporting part of that process, without overdoing or exaggerating its role...
shootin4par, puttmad,
However I am ready to make a fair deal. You post your opinion about weight shift in general or perhaps what you think the back swing is all about, you read through the threads below and I will then, if you are still interested, give you the answer to your question, but in a separate thread to prevent high jacking of this one.
OK. My final word on weight shift.
Weight shift is the body's attempt to remain in balance when various bodily components (in this case the hands and arms) are being moved outside the natural center of balance...
In other words , weight shift is something done as a reaction, not an action, therefore is a complimentary action...
Weight shift should support the intent of the hands (to apply maximum force to the ball) and therefore must be integrated as a supporting part of that process, without overdoing or exaggerating its role...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I totally disagree.
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