Weight shift

[mcflog]

Knudson felt that weight shift powered his entire swing. Weight going into right leg, weight going into the left leg. You can make some very good swings(half swings for me, maybe my weight shift needs to be better) with totally inert arms and just weight shift.

Not much different than Grout teaching a young Nicklaus to roll his ankles.

would think that you're giving up an awful lot if your weight shift is just a response to everything else.

 

[shootin4par]

mandrin
If you look at my original responses to you I was looking for what you considered and optimum weight shift, would it be a tiger woods weight shift, or is there another style that you consider better. YOu study the things from a much more scientific level. You started discussing coiling and that is when I added two thoughts, one of which I read up on, effective mass, and the other about contraction and relaxation phases of muscles. we left off on that discussion at the question. would a contracted muscle, with no help from its antagonistic partner, move it if was relaxed and would this assist in speed.

 

[puttmad]

....

I totally disagree.

I knew you would...

Perhaps I was over simplistic..

Forget the golf swing for a minute. Imagine you are chopping a tree down...

Do you think about weight shift conciously?... No (well I don't anyway). My body responds to the intent of my hands and puts my weight in the correct position for me to deliver the axe with the maximum weight/force at impact (if that is my intention)..

Does my weight go onto my back foot as I take the axe back? Yes

Does my right leg and lower back muscles drive my hips and torso around as I start to swing the axe towards the tree?....Yes

Does my weigh go onto my forward foot as I deliver the blow....Yes...

Now I didn't have to think about this weight shift, the intention of my hands has dictated the action of the body, which adjusts itself to my intention.

That is not to say that the "supporting" action of the weight shift is done "after the fact." It (the weight shifting), if THE HANDS ARE WORKING CORRECTLY, is done at exactly at the right time to deliver the blow the most efficiently.

TBH, to teach the body to weight shift correctly is teaching it something it already knows.
If the hands work correctly, the body works correctly. If the weight shift is not working correctly, then it is a fault regarding use of the hands, although most teachers will try and correct it by directly assaulting the weight shift.......

For example Brian, if you ask one of your students to literally throw their club down the fairway as far as they can (as some instructors do..), did any of them mention afterwards that they actually thought about weight shift during the process?... yet they mustered the maximum force their body could provide for the process...

 

[golfbulldog]

puttmad

I surmise that the ball would go as far if the shaft broke just before impact - as long as the shaft break doesn't affect the forward velocity of the clubhead. In other words, if the clubhead is travelling at 100mph one millisecond before impact, and the shaft breaks just before impact in such a way that the break doesn't affect the clubhead's forward speed, then the clubhead should still be travelling at approximately 100mph a millisecond after the break.

The only other factor to consider is whether ball compression during impact negatively influences the clubhead in such a way that energy is lost if the clubhead is not rigidly attached to a clubshaft. Has that beeen studied?

Jeff.

"Search for the Perfect Swing" they have a hinged clubhead...approx. same distance as fixed clubhead and rigid shaft.

 

[mandrin]

mandrin
If you look at my original responses to you I was looking for what you considered and optimum weight shift, would it be a tiger woods weight shift, or is there another style that you consider better. YOu study the things from a much more scientific level. You started discussing coiling and that is when I added two thoughts, one of which I read up on, effective mass, and the other about contraction and relaxation phases of muscles. we left off on that discussion at the question. would a contracted muscle, with no help from its antagonistic partner, move it if was relaxed and would this assist in speed.

Weight shift -

-1- Power source for swing?

Weight shift involves motion of the body. It can move downwards (‘squatting’), sideways (backswing and downswing), and upwards (‘standing up’). Being at the core the associated kinetic energy can flow proximal to distal if allowed by proper deceleration.

-2- Stable platform?

There are many who consider the body simply as a stable platform to give stability to the swinging of the arms. Here we touch upon a long standing debate if either the arms or the body power the swing.

-3- Stable anchor point for trail elbow?

There is also the notion that the lateral motion of the body in the downswing is to simply get into the proper position with the trail hip as an anchor point for the trail elbow where the trail elbow is considered to be the fulcrum for the swing at the bottom.

-4- Counter balancing upper and lower body, com stable?

Another idea is that the upper and lower body in the downswing are simply doing a balancing act whereas the overall center of mass remains virtually in one spot. Someone starting the down swing with a vigorous lateral slide will likely move his upper body a bit backwards.

One can ask the question, like shootin4par, if there is ONE optimum way of going about weight shift. If one looks at the scope of existing opinions on the subject it is a question easier asked than answered. I am all for BM’s approach – pragmatic, not really stubbornly scientific or worse, childishly dogmatic. Golfers are sooooo different in body and mental make up that I can’t see one unique optimum approach. But it is good to know the basic ideas so that a serious golfer or teacher knows what to look for experimenting or teaching.

 

[puttmad]

....

There are many who consider the body simply as a stable platform to give stability to the swinging of the arms. Here we touch upon a long standing debate if either the arms or the body power the swing.

Mandarin,
Have you ever used James Braid's "corkscrew" motion or Austin's "throw?"

Here is where MA thought the power of the swing was:

His forearm measured 16" around....

 

[puttmad]

....

One can ask the question, like shootin4par, if there is ONE optimum way of going about weight shift.

Mandarin,
I think perhaps this is the wrong question..
One doesn't have to "go about weight shift." Weight shift happens all on its own. It is our defence to prevent falling over..

I think the question should be, "Is there one optimum way of CONTROLLING weight shift?"

Let me clarify with two different scenarios..:

In my above example of using the axe to chop the tree.

1) On the forward power stroke my whole upper body would be moving towards the tree along with the axe, as this is what my body feels is neccessary to deliver all my weight into the blow...this is a pretty natural action used by most coordinated people.

My body would allow this forward moving action because it knows that once the axe bites into the tree it is going to stop almost immediately and with my hands hanging on to the axe handle and my arms being tense, there is little danger of me losing my balance and falling further forward and perhaps injuring myself with the axe or by falling over...

2) The second scenario is slightly different.
In this instance I am not faced by a great hefty tree but a much smaller one which I can decapitate in one blow.
So do I swing the axe the same way? . Well no...
In this case my body adjusts the weight shift because it knows that once I have sliced through the sapling the axe is going to continue travelling at a rapid rate in a circle to the left of me.
So what happens? In this case my body automatically adjusts by not allowing the forward moving top body action as in the first scenario, because it knows if it did I would overbalance after the axe has sliced through the tree.

Now if you transfer this thinking to our golf swing, you find it is more like the second scenario, in that we have to control the body's natural tendencies in order to deliver the club accurately, without falling over.

Therefore we don't have to "go about weight shift" we have to tailor the pivot in order to control it...

 

[Brian Manzella]

One doesn't have to "go about weight shift." Weight shift happens all on its own. It is our defence to prevent falling over.....

Puttmad,

How many golf lessons (Full Swing) have you given?

 

[puttmad]

....

Puttmad,

How many golf lessons (Full Swing) have you given?

LOL

Do I have to give lessons (god forbid..) to know what my body does?....

 

[Brian Manzella]

LOL

Do I have to give lessons (god forbid..) to know what my body does?....

No, you have to give about 2,000-3,000 lessons to have a clue. Unless you had someone tell you what to expect.

Golfers just don't pivot correctly. Teachers don't know how to teach it.

Go to the range, look around.

 

[shootin4par]

Golfers just don't pivot correctly. Teachers don't know how to teach it.

Go to the range, look around.

also factor in that the majority of the people in this world do not know how to learn and only once they are ready will they learn no matter who is the one speaking. Also, the "teachers" are among the group I just mentioned. Many people have the title of "teachers" but they did not learn how to teach so they become relayers of info. And since they did not learn about the info, but simply relay it, bad info gets relayed and blah blah blah. Try to tell a golfer at a lesson that the first thing he needs to do is learn how to breath so he looses some tension because he is holding his breath and the fight or flight mechanism kicks in and he just gets more and more tense hitting ball after ball till he is mentally exhausted. anyways, off the soapbox

 

[Tom Bartlett]

also factor in that the majority of the people in this world do not know how to learn and only once they are ready will they learn no matter who is the one speaking.

"No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher." - Mr. M

 

[mandrin]

Mandarin,
Have you ever used James Braid's "corkscrew" motion or Austin's "throw?"

Here is where MA thought the power of the swing was:

His forearm measured 16" around....

I am not aware of James Braid “corkscrew motion” but had almost included in my post a vertical weight shift which leads to a corkscrew type motion. If you are tightly coiled in the back swing and your intention is to go briskly vertically down, from the top, there will be simultaneously also a corkscrew type body motion, giving rise to a rather large torque.

Austin’s throw is quite similar to Tom Tomasello’s ideas and to Peter Croker’s Hit "A to B" instruction. The problem with these kinds of ideas is that they provoke a never ending debate for the simple reason that these types of instructions like trying to release with a throwing pushing action from the top don’t really show up in the instructor’s swing. Kind of an interesting paradox.

There is a swing sequence of Mike Austin put up by Tom Bartlett and he looks like someone perfectly retaining angles instead of a throwing releasing action. There is in effect a huge gap between feel and real for this type of instructions and as such dangerous for the average amateur. Because if you ask the average amateur to throw from the top he is indeed going to release and loose angles prematurely.

However, I have experimented with Tom Tomasello’s trail arm throwing action and like it. There is something interesting going on when the trail arms suddenly snaps straight, whilst the lead arm is relaxed and simply going on for the ride - worth investigating. There are many ways to skin a cat and that is the great fun of golf.

BTW, mandrin not Mandarin

 

[mandrin]

One doesn't have to "go about weight shift." Weight shift happens all on its own. It is our defence to prevent falling over..

puttmad,

I do feel that one can either can go very deliberately and purposely about weight shift or just let the body do its own job as it sees fit. That is the fun about golf, there is something in it for everyone.

 

[puttmad]

....

I am not aware of James Braid “corkscrew motion” but had almost included in my post a vertical weight shift which leads to a corkscrew type motion. If you are tightly coiled in the back swing and your intention is to go briskly vertically down, from the top, there will be simultaneously also a corkscrew type body motion, giving rise to a rather large torque.

Austin’s throw is quite similar to Tom Tomasello’s ideas and to Peter Croker’s Hit "A to B" instruction. The problem with these kinds of ideas is that they provoke a never ending debate for the simple reason that these types of instructions like trying to release with a throwing pushing action from the top don’t really show up in the instructor’s swing. Kind of an interesting paradox.

There is a swing sequence of Mike Austin put up by Tom Bartlett and he looks like someone perfectly retaining angles instead of a throwing releasing action. There is in effect a huge gap between feel and real for this type of instructions and as such dangerous for the average amateur. Because if you ask the average amateur to throw from the top he is indeed going to release and loose angles prematurely.

However, I have experimented with Tom Tomasello’s trail arm throwing action and like it. There is something interesting going on when the trail arms suddenly snaps straight, whilst the lead arm is relaxed and simply going on for the ride - worth investigating. There are many ways to skin a cat and that is the great fun of golf.

BTW, mandrin not Mandarin

Mand-rin....


The corkscrew is nothing to do with the body. It is the use of the right forearm (note- nothing to do with straightening the right elbow either, although that will be a secondary effect of using the motion correctly)...

It is the rotation of the right forearm from elbow to wrist, while the elbow is bent and the right hand is hyper extended (cupped back/cocked). One way on the backswing (winding up) and the other way at the top of the swing to start down..like turning a doorknob in both directions..

Try this to get the right idea
This is the "Corkscrew" or "The Throw"...

Point your right arm out at 45* to the right of your body.
Keeping your right upper arm horizontal, bend from the elbow until your forearm is pointing straight up to the sky.
Now cock your wrist so your palm is pointing up to the sky.
Now stick a club in that hand. The shaft will be horizontal and pointing directly behind you.
Now rotate your right forearm anti-clockwise (looking from the elbow upwards). Don't move your elbow or upper arm!.. The clubshaft will now have swung around and smacked you on the back of the head (sorry 'bout that, I forgot )..
Now simply rotate your right forearm clockwise, BUT keep your elbow still and the full wrist cock so your palm is facing the sky all the time. You will find the clubshaft will spin to your right quickly.

Now put your left hand on the grip also. Do exactly the same winding up (anti-clockwise rotation) process. you will find the left hand on the club is now stopping you smacking the back of your head, because the left wrist by this time is fully cocked and the right forearm muscles are really wound up.
Now do the fast clockwise right forearm rotation again. Keep the right hand under the left at all times (helps if you keep a flat left wrist).

Now do your normal golf backswing and do that anti-clockwise wind up process with the right forearm once your right elbow starts bending. At the top when beginning the downswing, really rotate that right arm clockwise. The quicker you rotate the forearm, the quicker you must pivot...Then just hang on...

Have fun , but don't hurt yourself, the first time I tried this in earnest I nearly pulled my shoulders out of their sockets.......so make sure you pivot when you try this....


RE MA "stop" photos you referred to.

Something for you to consider...

If you use the corkscrew or Austin's throwing action, its purpose is to accelerate the clubhead around the clubhead arc. For max clubhead speed, you throw as fast as you can.

Here is where many people seem to think there is a contradiction, because, as you said, in stop-photos of Austin he is showing massive lag when approaching impact.

How can that contradiction occur?...

The answer is, it is a matter of position....

The position I am referring to is the hands relative to the clubhead during any part of the downswing before impact...

Let's say you throw from the top and bring your hands down very slowly. It does not take a genius to realize that the clubhead will soon overtake the hands and in our scenario (the actual swing) would lead to premature release of the clubshaft angle relative to the left arm.....

Therefore, when throwing the club using the corkscrew or Austin's motion, no matter what speed you throw at, the hands must move down correspondingly quickly to remain in front of the clubhead and retain the lag...
This is why Austin said he increases the speed of the pivot the harder he throws.
The speed of the pivot needs to increase to allow you to drop the hands quicker, thus allowing them to remain in front of the clubhead...

The difference between doing this, as opposed to the normal "holding the lag angle" until late in the downswing is that there is really nothing extra to do to make the clubhead release at the bottom, the "centrifugal" action does it all for you..

With a normal "lagging" swing, the clubhead has much less momentum before release, thus an actual applied effort is needed to make the club release at the bottom. This is usually done by leverage on the grip by one or both hands, plus the extension of the righ arm.
This is why Austin says if you hold off releasing the club, it "knocks you back" due to the late effort involved...

The corkscrew or Austin's motion is, in fact, much simpler. You throw the club right from the top (which guarantees you get the club moving fast) and then all you have to do is keep your hand in front of it on the downswing..
Therefore, the art to the corkscrew or throw is to learn (intend) to pivot quickly enough to keep your hands in front of the fast moving clubhead...

IMO this is much easier to do than trying to hold the lag as long as possible and then attempting to release the club correctly at the last minute...

 

[shootin4par]

"No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher." - Mr. M

great quote because that shows the teacher believes in the student, that is a must. As a teacher I have come to realize that I cannnot judge what students are ready to learn and which students are not. Always believe in our students that they can do it, also understand that some students are just not ready. Kind of like an alcoholic who you may think his life is bad but he does not turn around because he has not hit his rock bottom. THe alcoholic is not tired enough of his lifestyle to make a change. SO no matter how much his family tries to teach him another way he does not really listen to them or learn from them no matter how good of teachers they are. Like the quote, 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear" The student must be ready for learning to take place.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well....

...'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear" The student must be ready for learning to take place.

This is when you find out if you are really a teacher—when they DON'T show up ready. Then getting them ready AND TAUGHT is YOUR JOB.

 

[shootin4par]

This is when you find out if you are really a teacher—when they DON'T show up ready. Then getting them ready AND TAUGHT is YOUR JOB.

understood
throw golf out the window, I like your teaching philosophy and I agree with it. we could make points and counterpoints and then it would seem as if the teaching philophy varies greatly, when i dont think that is the case. In a teacher student relationship both have a responsibility, in an ideal world it would be an equal responsibility. Sometimes the teacher needs to take on 99.99999%
of the responsibility, then sometimes it is the students responsibility to make more effort to lean and exract knowledge from the teacher. Many variables because every situation is different. If we discussed this stuff in person I believe things would seem very much in agreement. but trying to put years worth of thought, research, and practice into 100 typed words, well I dont think it would do it justice. Kind of like trying to sum up the golf swing in 100 words, while limiting those words to not provoke anymore thought other then the 100 words.

 

[mandrin]

Mand-rin....


The corkscrew is nothing to do with the body. It is the use of the right forearm (note- nothing to do with straightening the right elbow either, although that will be a secondary effect of using the motion correctly)...

It is the rotation of the right forearm from elbow to wrist, while the elbow is bent and the right hand is hyper extended (cupped back/cocked). One way on the backswing (winding up) and the other way at the top of the swing to start down..like turning a doorknob in both directions..

Try this to get the right idea
This is the "Corkscrew" or "The Throw"...

Point your right arm out at 45* to the right of your body.
Keeping your right upper arm horizontal, bend from the elbow until your forearm is pointing straight up to the sky.
Now cock your wrist so your palm is pointing up to the sky.
Now stick a club in that hand. The shaft will be horizontal and pointing directly behind you.
Now rotate your right forearm anti-clockwise (looking from the elbow upwards). Don't move your elbow or upper arm!.. The clubshaft will now have swung around and smacked you on the back of the head (sorry 'bout that, I forgot )..
Now simply rotate your right forearm clockwise, BUT keep your elbow still and the full wrist cock so your palm is facing the sky all the time. You will find the clubshaft will spin to your right quickly.

Now put your left hand on the grip also. Do exactly the same winding up (anti-clockwise rotation) process. you will find the left hand on the club is now stopping you smacking the back of your head, because the left wrist by this time is fully cocked and the right forearm muscles are really wound up.
Now do the fast clockwise right forearm rotation again. Keep the right hand under the left at all times (helps if you keep a flat left wrist).

Now do your normal golf backswing and do that anti-clockwise wind up process with the right forearm once your right elbow starts bending. At the top when beginning the downswing, really rotate that right arm clockwise. The quicker you rotate the forearm, the quicker you must pivot...Then just hang on...

Have fun , but don't hurt yourself, the first time I tried this in earnest I nearly pulled my shoulders out of their sockets.......so make sure you pivot when you try this....


RE MA "stop" photos you referred to.

Something for you to consider...

If you use the corkscrew or Austin's throwing action, its purpose is to accelerate the clubhead around the clubhead arc. For max clubhead speed, you throw as fast as you can.

Here is where many people seem to think there is a contradiction, because, as you said, in stop-photos of Austin he is showing massive lag when approaching impact.

How can that contradiction occur?...

The answer is, it is a matter of position....

The position I am referring to is the hands relative to the clubhead during any part of the downswing before impact...

Let's say you throw from the top and bring your hands down very slowly. It does not take a genius to realize that the clubhead will soon overtake the hands and in our scenario (the actual swing) would lead to premature release of the clubshaft angle relative to the left arm.....

Therefore, when throwing the club using the corkscrew or Austin's motion, no matter what speed you throw at, the hands must move down correspondingly quickly to remain in front of the clubhead and retain the lag...
This is why Austin said he increases the speed of the pivot the harder he throws.
The speed of the pivot needs to increase to allow you to drop the hands quicker, thus allowing them to remain in front of the clubhead...

The difference between doing this, as opposed to the normal "holding the lag angle" until late in the downswing is that there is really nothing extra to do to make the clubhead release at the bottom, the "centrifugal" action does it all for you..

With a normal "lagging" swing, the clubhead has much less momentum before release, thus an actual applied effort is needed to make the club release at the bottom. This is usually done by leverage on the grip by one or both hands, plus the extension of the righ arm.
This is why Austin says if you hold off releasing the club, it "knocks you back" due to the late effort involved...

The corkscrew or Austin's motion is, in fact, much simpler. You throw the club right from the top (which guarantees you get the club moving fast) and then all you have to do is keep your hand in front of it on the downswing..
Therefore, the art to the corkscrew or throw is to learn (intend) to pivot quickly enough to keep your hands in front of the fast moving clubhead...

IMO this is much easier to do than trying to hold the lag as long as possible and then attempting to release the club correctly at the last minute...

puttmad,

When swinging a golf club leisurely you can swing in many different ways. However once golfer starts producing in excess of 300 yards then we are talking about a different ball game all together.

The main aim for such swinging is to obtain the maximum possible centrifugal force. Centrifugal forces are generated by rotation. This rotation results from torques generated by the core not from light hands and supple arms.

The mechanical advantage to be obtained is that of velocity multiplication using the various levers of the body and it is obtained by keeping the angles and letting centrifugal force do its job, forcing the clubhead outward at the last instant.

As soon as you start thinking of the human body as an ensemble of bones and muscles, hence as a machine, there is no place left for feelings. There are simply masses connected together through joints and put into motion by muscles producing torques.

I realize that feel is frequently in opposition with real. I know and agree that it is a very compelling feeling, ‘supple quickness’, feeling the ‘mind’ in the hands, it doing seemingly all the work. Feel is fascinating and definitively extremely useful but is and remains a subjective reality.

I am waiting for someone to translate notions like ‘hands/arms produce power, body follows’ into scientific terms. Are you aware that a pro golfer generates a centripetal pulling force well over 100 pounds counteracting the large centrifugal force generated by the whirling clubhead? We don’t, it just happens too fast.

 

[puttmad]

.....

puttmad,

When swinging a golf club leisurely you can swing in many different ways. However once golfer starts producing in excess of 300 yards then we are talking about a different ball game all together.

The main aim for such swinging is to obtain the maximum possible centrifugal force. Centrifugal forces are generated by rotation. This rotation results from torques generated by the core not from light hands and supple arms.

The mechanical advantage to be obtained is that of velocity multiplication using the various levers of the body and it is obtained by keeping the angles and letting centrifugal force do its job, forcing the clubhead outward at the last instant.

As soon as you start thinking of the human body as an ensemble of bones and muscles, hence as a machine, there is no place left for feelings. There are simply masses connected together through joints and put into motion by muscles producing torques.

I realize that feel is frequently in opposition with real. I know and agree that it is a very compelling feeling, ‘supple quickness’, feeling the ‘mind’ in the hands, it doing seemingly all the work. Feel is fascinating and definitively extremely useful but is and remains a subjective reality.

I am waiting for someone to translate notions like ‘hands/arms produce power, body follows’ into scientific terms. Are you aware that a pro golfer generates a centripetal pulling force well over 100 pounds counteracting the large centrifugal force generated by the whirling clubhead? We don’t, it just happens too fast.

M,

Did you actually try what I mentioned above?

Don't think about it, don't try and figure it out, just follow the process as outlined and go and give it a try...

Then come back and tell me you had less clubhead speed...

PS. This is the process that allowed Braid to hit the ball 295 yards 100 years ago and Austin to hit 500+ yards when he was in his 60's, and both of them using "old fashioned" equipment and balls at that....

Come to a conclusion once you have tried it properly...