What 'controls' the clubface

[Brian Manzella]

This is a very valid subject for discussion and debate and was brought up on another thread...here is some of that and my quick comments:

quote:
Posted by Ringer
"...there ARE some technical issues which I do have with TGM. The first and foremost in my mind is that of the clubface being controled by the hands. I can quite clearly demonstrate otherwise..."

Brian Manzella response:
You can control the clubface with the hands, and plently golfers need to LEARN to.

There are other ways to do it, of course.

quote:
Posted by Holenone/Yoda/Lynn Blake

"For the true Swinger, Centrifugal Force controls the Clubhead Power and the Clubface Alignment.

For 'Manipulated Clubface' Swingers, Centrifugal Force controls only the Clubhead; the Clubface is best aligned by the Flat Left Wrist executing its Hinge Action (2-G and 7-10).

For Hitters, Muscular Thrust Powers the Clubhead, and the Flat Left Wrist aligns the Clubface."

Brian Manzella response:

Of course, this is the absolute TGM (and very correct) answer.

Thanks Yoda!

 

[azgolfer]

Seems to me it is the right hand moving from under/in back of the left to over/in front of it that moves the clubface from open (parallel clubshaft downswing) to shut (parallel clubshaft follow through). Any contribution from the pivot, shoulder turn, etc. seems like it is small in comparison.

 

[dclaryjr]

quote:Originally posted by brianman


Brian Manzella response:
You can control the clubface with the hands, and plently golfers need to LEARN to.

There are other ways to do it, of course.

quote:
Posted by Holenone/Yoda/Lynn Blake

"For the true Swinger, Centrifugal Force controls the Clubhead Power and the Clubface Alignment.

For 'Manipulated Clubface' Swingers, Centrifugal Force controls only the Clubhead; the Clubface is best aligned by the Flat Left Wrist executing its Hinge Action (2-G and 7-10).

For Hitters, Muscular Thrust Powers the Clubhead, and the Flat Left Wrist aligns the Clubface."

Brian Manzella response:

Of course, this is the absolute TGM (and very correct) answer.

Thanks Yoda!

Brian,

This discussion has me wondering something. How do you approach working with someone for the first time in regards to swinging/hitting? Are there things you see that make you decide that a student can make some minimum corrections, as opposed to someone who needs an overhaul? Do you tend to teach one over the other? I'm curious because the attendees reporting from Yoda's workshop seem quite enamored with hitting (and the unmistakeable sound of 3D Impact) But right now I feel better using a predominately left side pulling motion--but I'm erratic as hell. If I recall correctly, I've read that a good swinging motion is actually easier to learn. Just curious how you approach this.

Thanks!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Golfers usually have a swing or a hit.

Most of 'em though do a few other things wrong that need to be fixed first.

Like the clubface is WIDE OPEN because the LEFT WRIST IS BENT at the top of the backstroke.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by azgolfer

Seems to me it is the right hand moving from under/in back of the left to over/in front of it that moves the clubface from open (parallel clubshaft downswing) to shut (parallel clubshaft follow through).

You are correct, azgolfer. The #3 Accumulator Roll (6-B-3-0) -- the Open-to-Close Action of the Clubface (and, indeed, the entire Left Arm Flying Wedge) -- is, in fact, actuated by the Right Arm.

[Don't be buffaloed by the terminology here; we're talking about simply 'closing a door' by pushing on it with our right arm.]

However, for a number of reasons, Right Hand Control of the Clubface Alignment (in addition to its natural control of the Clubhead Power) is less than ideal. Therefore, though the Drive Out of the Right Arm -- Active (Hitting) or Passive (Swinging) -- is the Actuator of the #3 Roll, it is the Flat Left Wrist and its Hinge Action (2-G and 7-10) that gives Clubface Control its fine tuning. It's what Homer Kelley called...

"The veneer control."

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by dclaryjr

How do you approach working with someone for the first time in regards to swinging/hitting? Are there things you see that make you decide that a student can make some minimum corrections, as opposed to someone who needs an overhaul? Do you tend to teach one over the other? I'm curious because the attendees reporting from Yoda's workshop seem quite enamored with hitting (and the unmistakeable sound of 3D Impact)

My twin Yoda teaches both Hitting and Swinging. And he can do both equally well. He says 'Swing if you want and here's how.' Or, 'Hit if you want and here's how.'

But he's a 'Wus.'

I like to Hit.

 

[Ringer]

I'll start off with a simple statement and allow for you each to experiment with it and reach your own conclusions. I should probably also mention, this idea was intruduced to me by Chuck Hogan... and thusly is not entirely my own.

The clubface is dictated by the rotation of the forearms.

 

[cdog]

"The club face is dictated by the rotation of the forearms."

Is this telling me "the arms are responsible for returning the club face leading edge to square, and they work with the hands to maintain a constantly correct club face throughout the swing" ?

This was an eye opener to me when i finally understood what it meant. I read it from several places, Evershed, Shauger, Austin, and i couldn't understand because TGM tells me the lead hand controls the face. Holenone gives a good analogy above, and now i get it, the lead hand is the face, but the rear actuates it.

 

[Ringer]

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

 

[Powerdraw]

...we got a left hand that controls face but hands can also alter clubs position...we have forearms rotating...
then...a vertical hinge action (hands feel nothing in my case or reverse roll, forearms rotate notta!) doesnt strike ball with an open face, then what makes it go straight?...what else?....how about pivot!

 

[Mathew]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

The hands do have a role to play - Think about it ....

Most set-up with the left wrist bent and right wrist flat - now those have to reverse their conditions.... that movement is independant of any forearm rotation....

 

[njmp2]

Ringer? Ever touch a women? Hands not forearms, dude.
My hands control the whole club. My foreamrms are important but fine tuning is done my the hands. Forearms are part of the levers attacjhed to the arms. The arms are vitual in keeping a radius of the circle. Circles have straight lines- arms.

btw. you exhaust easy

 

[dclaryjr]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

Originally posted by dclaryjr


My twin Yoda teaches both Hitting and Swinging. And he can do both equally well. He says 'Swing if you want and here's how.' Or, 'Hit if you want and here's how.'

But he's a 'Wus.'

Once again with the attitude--I like it! [8D]

The key words in 12 seem to be: "Flexible=Swing" "Strong=Hit"
Since my strong suits athletically were running and cycling, I ended up with a rather inflexible/weak upper body. Guess I'll work on strength and flexibility (and my short game) until I see Brian in December and go from there.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by Powerdraw

...we got a left hand that controls face but hands can also alter clubs position...we have forearms rotating...
then...a vertical hinge action (hands feel nothing in my case or reverse roll, forearms rotate notta!) doesnt strike ball with an open face, then what makes it go straight?...what else?....how about pivot!

This is also a very logical conclusion. It could be said that the forearms do not rotate at all and neither do the hands... instead rotation is axis or pivot driven and I certainly would not dispute that.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by Mathew
The hands do have a role to play - Think about it ....

Most set-up with the left wrist bent and right wrist flat - now those have to reverse their conditions.... that movement is independant of any forearm rotation....

I don't quite follow the line of thinking here. In fact, from what I can gather of what you're saying it actually supports my position. At both setup AND impact the clubface must be square (excuse me.. square at seperation), the hands have a different relationship to the body, yet the clubface remains the same. So in essense the hands can be hinged or bent and the clubface still remains aimed at the target.. how is that so?

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

Ringer? Ever touch a women? Hands not forearms, dude.
My hands control the whole club. My foreamrms are important but fine tuning is done my the hands. Forearms are part of the levers attacjhed to the arms. The arms are vitual in keeping a radius of the circle. Circles have straight lines- arms.

btw. you exhaust easy

I'm sorry but I do not see the relevance of this to my position on hands vs forearms.

The only straight lines in a circle are the ones used to create or measure the circle (ie: radius, chord, diameter) .. but they do not constitute the structure of a circle. Circles are round and cannot be any other way or they turn into polygons.

If it would help any we could say the hands are key in determining the face angle.. but they still do not control the rotational aspect of the clubface.

 

[Brian Manzella]

So Steve, you figure that the 'wrists' only add or take loft away?

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

Ringer? Ever touch a women? Hands not forearms, dude.
My hands control the whole club. My foreamrms are important but fine tuning is done my the hands. Forearms are part of the levers attacjhed to the arms. The arms are vitual in keeping a radius of the circle. Circles have straight lines- arms.

btw. you exhaust easy

I'm sorry but I do not see the relevance of this to my position on hands vs forearms.

The only straight lines in a circle are the ones used to create or measure the circle (ie: radius, chord, diameter) .. but they do not constitute the structure of a circle. Circles are round and cannot be any other way or they turn into polygons.

If it would help any we could say the hands are key in determining the face angle.. but they still do not control the rotational aspect of the clubface.

Yes, straight lines CREATE the circle, congrats for seeing that. In the golf swing only the clubhead moves in a circle. The body and arms move in straight lines.
Back to the circle, a circle is made up of points, whether it is a a hundred points, a million or as we know it an infinite number of points - each point is connected by a straight line. Straight lines are everywhere in a circle. Only, and like the path of the clubhead, controled perfectly by the right hand, the circumference, the perimeter is "circular." Geomentry is wonderful. So are the concepts of TGM.
The right hand controls the clubhead down down down and out out out and through through through the ball. The left hand fine tunes the clubface with an angular hinge and total controls the clubface in a horizontal hinge. The left hand doesn't, except with a hardly used vertical hinging, layback to add loft. Angled hinging has layback built in as part of the right hand motion, but the power of the right shoulder and right arm thrusting compensates this power lost.
With horizontal hinging the left hand totally controls the clubface but maintain rhythm, the TGM definition of rhythm- holding both lever assemblies (dam that’s the forearms) to the same basic R.P.M. through out the swing. I know this is scary but after a few minutes this becomes a feel.
In TGM we have a magic RIGHT forearm that traces the plane line -what ever plane line you want. And a string for a left arm. Which is why the right is on plane and the left isn't. I jumped ahead , sorry.

What is the laTorre web site's url? I'd like to know more. I read the book already.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

So Steve, you figure that the 'wrists' only add or take loft away?

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm speaking only to one specific aspect of the clubface and it's relation to a particular part of the body. Nothing beyond that.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

quote:Originally posted by Ringer
I'm sorry but I do not see the relevance of this to my position on hands vs forearms.

The only straight lines in a circle are the ones used to create or measure the circle (ie: radius, chord, diameter) .. but they do not constitute the structure of a circle. Circles are round and cannot be any other way or they turn into polygons.

If it would help any we could say the hands are key in determining the face angle.. but they still do not control the rotational aspect of the clubface.

Yes, straight lines CREATE the circle, congrats for seeing that. In the golf swing only the clubhead moves in a circle.

The clubhead does not move in a circle. It moves in an arc. But so does the shaft, the grip, and the hands. Not ONLY the clubhead.

quote:
The body and arms move in straight lines.

Quite to the contrary.
Since they are jointed and all joints create hinge actions, all movement of the upper arm and forearm must have an arc.

quote:
Back to the circle, a circle is made up of points, whether it is a a hundred points, a million or as we know it an infinite number of points - each point is connected by a straight line. Straight lines are everywhere in a circle. Only, and like the path of the clubhead, controled perfectly by the right hand, the circumference, the perimeter is "circular." Geomentry is wonderful. So are the concepts of TGM.

This is true only of linear dynamics. But non-linear dynamics dictate that instead it is one continual movement and not a series of points. Unfortunately not much golf instruction has been said about non-linear dynamics because it is a relatively new field of study. But we are quite clearly moving away from the topic of discussion.

quote:
The right hand controls the clubhead down down down and out out out and through through through the ball.

So when I remove my right hand from the club, the club is no longer capable of going "down down down and out out out and through through through"? I suppose that probably sounds like a silly thing to ponder.. so I'll approach it differently.

Why does the right hand dictate the clubhead through your three described dimensions? Why does the pivot not control it?

quote:
The left hand fine tunes the clubface with an angular hinge and total controls the clubface in a horizontal hinge. The left hand doesn't, except with a hardly used vertical hinging, layback to add loft. Angled hinging has layback built in as part of the right hand motion, but the power of the right shoulder and right arm thrusting compensates this power lost.
With horizontal hinging the left hand totally controls the clubface but maintain rhythm, the TGM definition of rhythm- holding both lever assemblies (dam that’s the forearms) to the same basic R.P.M. through out the swing. I know this is scary but after a few minutes this becomes a feel.

You've lost me here. Isn't any hinge angular? What is horizontal/vertical hinge and from who's perspective? What is layback? What lost are you talking about? I'm sorry but I just don't understand.. can you restate it at all in a slightly less obscure manner or specific to that of TGM verbage?

quote:
In TGM we have a magic RIGHT forearm that traces the plane line -what ever plane line you want. And a string for a left arm. Which is why the right is on plane and the left isn't. I jumped ahead , sorry.

What is the laTorre web site's url? I'd like to know more. I read the book already.

Your right forearm traces the plane line? What plane line? When you say a string left arm are you saying it is inactive or only "pulls"?

Manuel does not have a url... only the book and DVD.