What 'controls' the clubface

[Ringer]

Hmmm.. I think an analogy here might be of help.

Imagine a vice attached to a table. The vice is gripping a golf club. Does the vice control the club? Yes. But unless the table rotates, the club will not move. The directy CONTROL of the club could be seen as being then in the vice... however it's motion is dictated by the table.

Does this help to clear up my point.. and that of what I believe HK was saying?

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Triad

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

Ringer,

There is no argument here and hence no point for debate.

The Flat Left Wrist control of the Club has two distinct Actions. One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

No, Homer's position was not that the Hands originate the Motions of the Clubface (Hinge Action) and the Clubhead (Swivel Action), only that they control them. In fact, he said exactly that in 2-M-3:

"The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps attaching the Club to the Arms for control of the Clubface alignments."

"So, the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the Wrists is 'holding on.'

Next 'Anti-TGM' topic for debate, please.

So, can we conclude that Gerry Hogans assertion that'foream rotation is SOLELY responsible for clubface alignment' is incorrect?
Clearly Hing action, controled by the left wrist, imparts clubhead closing, with or without forearm rotation. Even Horizontal Hinging is a 'full roll feel' not an actual roll of the hands/forearms.

Yes, for the Swinger, there is the swivel from release to impact, and from follow-through to Finish, but it does not substitute for proper hinge action.

As pointed out earlier: Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms."

But he also said " Some players even execute Impact as exclusively a Swivel (forearm rotation:my words) making clubhead alignment fleeting and eratic." I know! I have tried it!

Triad

[Bold in last quote by Yoda.]

For the newbies, forgive me.

For the many, take what you can and throw the rest in the Incubator. Keep studying TGM and re-read this post periodically. One day it will all make perfect sense.

For the few, enjoy!

=================================================================

I am not familiar with Gerry Hogan or his quote. I am familiar with The Golfing Machine. And in The Golfing Machine there is a Hinge Action, and there is a Swivel Action.

The Hinge Action is the Left Hand and Arm Rotating about a Shoulder Hinge Pin with the Left Wrist remaining Vertical (perpendicular) to the Axis of Rotation. Whether that Axis is positioned Vertical (perpendicular) to a Horizontal Plane, a Vertical Plane or an Inclined Plane, the Blade of the Hinge (the Left Arm, Flat Left Wrist and Club, i.e., the Left Arm Flying Wedge) must move around it in a circle. That means the Left Arm and Flat Left Wrist must move, just as the blade of any hinge must move.

It does not mean that the Left Arm and Flat Left Wrist must rotate! The blade of a hinge remains always perpendicular to its Plane of Rotation. It must not -- indeed it cannot -- rotate, i.e., independently 'Turn' or 'Roll!' Even if the Clubface Closes, as it will with Horizontal and Angled Hinging, this is simply the movement of the Arm and Flat Left Wrist around the Axis of Rotation. It is not a true Rotation of the Arm and Flat Left Wrist themselves.

To get the idea, extend your Left Arm and Flat Left Wrist straight out in front of you (in a horizontal plane) and swing the entire unit back and forth on this plane. Just like a swinging gate, right? The gate moves in a circle about its Left Shoulder axis, but it does not 'turn' or 'roll,' i.e., twist one way or another. Get the picture?

If, however, the Flat Left Wrist Turns (rotates to the right) and Rolls (rotates to the left) while the Arm does not move, then you have a Swivel Action. This is a true rotation of the Forearm.

So, with a Hinge Action, the Left Arm must move -- but it does not rotate. With a Swivel Action, the Left Arm may or may not move -- but the Swivelling Forearm makes a true rotation. Again, this is not a Hinge Action, i.e., controlling the Clubface Alignment through the Impact Interval by maintaining the Flat Left Wrist perpendicular to the desired Plane of Motion (of the Clubface). Instead, this is a Swivel Action, i.e., a true Rotation of the Arm that positions the Clubface and Clubhead On Plane throughout the remaining Sections of the Stroke.

 

[Triad]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Hmmm.. I think an analogy here might be of help.

Imagine a vice attached to a table. The vice is gripping a golf club. Does the vice control the club? Yes. But unless the table rotates, the club will not move. The directy CONTROL of the club could be seen as being then in the vice... however it's motion is dictated by the table.

Does this help to clear up my point.. and that of what I believe HK was saying?

Yes! Exactly. The Vice is the Hands. Does it control the Club? Yes!

Does the table Rotate? NO! Does the Vice Roll? No!! The Vice Rotates on the plane of the table (The Inclined Plane).

YES!! The motion of the club is dictated by the PLANE of the table. Still doesn't mean that the 'vice' needs to ROLL. It simply Rotates Perpendicular to the plane of the Table.

Now, If you want to discuss what sets the Vice in motion on the Inclined plane of the Table, then we can give that a go. However, no example will conclude with a mandatory Roll of the Vice, the Hands or the Forearms along this Inclined Plane.

Triad

 

[David Alford]

Triad, I'll use one of the list of factors I gave: grip. If the grip is "strong" the clubface will tend to close more than if the grip is "weak". The influence is a function of the swing model. Nothing new here; all these factors were just overlooked.

To answer you other question, holenone's answer is fine amended with the factors I gave. There are probably a few others, but that's basically it.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Hmmm.. I think an analogy here might be of help.

Imagine a vice attached to a table. The vice is gripping a golf club. Does the vice control the club? Yes. But unless the table rotates, the club will not move. The directy CONTROL of the club could be seen as being then in the vice... however it's motion is dictated by the table.

Does this help to clear up my point.. and that of what I believe HK was saying?

Not if the vice moves independently and moves the table.
A vice grip on a table is a poor analogy since like my independently moving vice, tables don’t rotate on their own. My independently moving vice might rotate it though. And a club in a vice shows no control what so ever. Educated TGM hands ARE NOT vices. They move bodies.

This is rich - liar or con? Which are you? You know nothing about TGM, You are baffled by simply concepts of hinging, rhythm, etc from a recent reply and you claim to know what Homer meant.

 

[David Alford]

6bee, why don't you stop the personal attacks - this time against someone other than me. You're calling him a liar or a con. It's not necessary.

 

[Ringer]

I'm a liar an a con? What did I lie about? Who am I coning? Do you REALLY think I'd try to CON a TGM group such as this?

Ok.. so you want to ask what if the vice can move independent of the table. Fine.. I'll go with that. Let's allow the vice to move in two ways and two ways only, since the wrist allows the hand to move in two ways and two ways only. We'll call these two ways vertical hinging and horizontal hinging. One way move the club along the horizontal plane of the table, while the vertical movement goes at 90 degrees to the surface of the table. Now.. you cannot, in any way shape or form.. move the vice in a combination of those two ways that permits the leading edge of the clubface to not be facing one specific direction.. The only possible way to keep a right handed club from facing the one side of the table is by rotating the vice or club, or "rolling" it.

You can do this little experiment yourself.. take a club in just your left hand. Now, without moving your arm at all, just move your hand. No matter how you move your hand independent of your arm, the leading edge of the clubface will face the target. Now.. move your arm forward toward the target.. but keep the back of your left forearm facing the target. Still the same thing occurs. You cannot move your hand in any manner that makes the leading edge stop facing the target.

 

[ukhacker]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Triad

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

Ringer,

There is no argument here and hence no point for debate.

The Flat Left Wrist control of the Club has two distinct Actions. One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

No, Homer's position was not that the Hands originate the Motions of the Clubface (Hinge Action) and the Clubhead (Swivel Action), only that they control them. In fact, he said exactly that in 2-M-3:

"The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps attaching the Club to the Arms for control of the Clubface alignments."

"So, the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the Wrists is 'holding on.'

Next 'Anti-TGM' topic for debate, please.

So, can we conclude that Gerry Hogans assertion that'foream rotation is SOLELY responsible for clubface alignment' is incorrect?
Clearly Hing action, controled by the left wrist, imparts clubhead closing, with or without forearm rotation. Even Horizontal Hinging is a 'full roll feel' not an actual roll of the hands/forearms.

Yes, for the Swinger, there is the swivel from release to impact, and from follow-through to Finish, but it does not substitute for proper hinge action.

As pointed out earlier: Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms."

But he also said " Some players even execute Impact as exclusively a Swivel (forearm rotation:my words) making clubhead alignment fleeting and eratic." I know! I have tried it!

Triad

[Bold in last quote by Yoda.]

For the newbies, forgive me.

For the many, take what you can and throw the rest in the Incubator. Keep studying TGM and re-read this post periodically. One day it will all make perfect sense.

For the few, enjoy!

=================================================================

I am not familiar with Gerry Hogan or his quote. I am familiar with The Golfing Machine. And in The Golfing Machine there is a Hinge Action, and there is a Swivel Action.

The Hinge Action is the Left Hand and Arm Rotating about a Shoulder Hinge Pin with the Left Wrist remaining Vertical (perpendicular) to the Axis of Rotation. Whether that Axis is positioned Vertical (perpendicular) to a Horizontal Plane, a Vertical Plane or an Inclined Plane, the Blade of the Hinge (the Left Arm, Flat Left Wrist and Club, i.e., the Left Arm Flying Wedge) must move around it in a circle. That means the Left Arm and Flat Left Wrist must move, just as the blade of any hinge must move.

It does not mean that the Left Arm and Flat Left Wrist must rotate! The blade of a hinge remains always perpendicular to its Plane of Rotation. It must not -- indeed it cannot -- rotate, i.e., independently 'Turn' or 'Roll!' Even if the Clubface Closes, as it will with Horizontal and Angled Hinging, this is simply the movement of the Arm and Flat Left Wrist around the Axis of Rotation. It is not a true Rotation of the Arm and Flat Left Wrist themselves.

To get the idea, extend your Left Arm and Flat Left Wrist straight out in front of you (in a horizontal plane) and swing the entire unit back and forth on this plane. Just like a swinging gate, right? The gate moves in a circle about its Left Shoulder axis, but it does not 'turn' or 'roll,' i.e., twist one way or another. Get the picture?

If, however, the Flat Left Wrist Turns (rotates to the right) and Rolls (rotates to the left) while the Arm does not move, then you have a Swivel Action. This is a true rotation of the Forearm.

So, with a Hinge Action, the Left Arm must move -- but it does not rotate. With a Swivel Action, the Left Arm may or may not move -- but the Swivelling Forearm makes a true rotation. Again, this is not a Hinge Action, i.e., controlling the Clubface Alignment through the Impact Interval by maintaining the Flat Left Wrist perpendicular to the desired Plane of Motion (of the Clubface). Instead, this is a Swivel Action, i.e., a true Rotation of the Arm that positions the Clubface and Clubhead On Plane throughout the remaining Sections of the Stroke.

If the left arm may rotate or swivel then why is swivelling not clubface control? Also if we use hinge action and swivel then why is the hinge responsible for clubface control seeing that the swivel has rotated the face?

Hinge action has been defined as the blade of a hinge remaining perpendicular to its Plane of Rotation. How does this relate to Horizontal, Vertical and Angled Hinge actions?

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

I'm a liar an a con? What did I lie about? Who am I coning? Do you REALLY think I'd try to CON a TGM group such as this?

Ok.. so you want to ask what if the vice can move independent of the table. Fine.. I'll go with that. Let's allow the vice to move in two ways and two ways only, since the wrist allows the hand to move in two ways and two ways only. We'll call these two ways vertical hinging and horizontal hinging. One way move the club along the horizontal plane of the table, while the vertical movement goes at 90 degrees to the surface of the table. Now.. you cannot, in any way shape or form.. move the vice in a combination of those two ways that permits the leading edge of the clubface to not be facing one specific direction.. The only possible way to keep a right handed club from facing the one side of the table is by rotating the vice or club, or "rolling" it.

You can do this little experiment yourself.. take a club in just your left hand. Now, without moving your arm at all, just move your hand. No matter how you move your hand independent of your arm, the leading edge of the clubface will face the target. Now.. move your arm forward toward the target.. but keep the back of your left forearm facing the target. Still the same thing occurs. You cannot move your hand in any manner that makes the leading edge stop facing the target.

Don't know about the con or liar but I think the point about the club being held in the hand is not about moving it but about controling it. (I'll look up the word for you- in Webster's: Control- to have power over something, to decide or guide the way something works)
Nobody refutes that the arm doesn't move but refutes your idea that something other than the hand controls the clubhead and clubface. TGM is about alignments not positions. You put people in positions, TGM plays alignment golf.
Nice try on hinging- LOL. You fail to understand hinging, it uses the shoulder and hand and there are three hinges, not just two plus a one dual hinge. What hinges? The clubface- controled by the hand- moved by the arm that is moving with a pivot. Steve, where is the hinge pin? TGM is based in a hands control pivot, a hands control of the clubhead. You would be better off trying to sell meat to vegetarians then change the bases of TGM. Good Luck

 

[Triad]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Triad, I'll use one of the list of factors I gave: grip. If the grip is "strong" the clubface will tend to close more than if the grip is "weak". The influence is a function of the swing model. Nothing new here; all these factors were just overlooked.

David,

I am a bit stunned. You actualy responded to a direct question with a clear and direct answer. Are you having an off day?

Valid point about the grip. I hope that one makes it into your book.

Triad

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by njmp2
Don't know about the con or liar but I think the point about the club being held in the hand is not about moving it but about controling it. (I'll look up the word for you- in Webster's: Control- to have power over something, to decide or guide the way something works)
Nobody refutes that the arm doesn't move but refutes your idea that something other than the hand controls the clubhead and clubface. TGM is about alignments not positions. You put people in positions, TGM plays alignment golf.
Nice try on hinging- LOL. You fail to understand hinging, it uses the shoulder and hand and there are three hinges, not just two plus a one dual hinge. What hinges? The clubface- controled by the hand- moved by the arm that is moving with a pivot. Steve, where is the hinge pin? TGM is based in a hands control pivot, a hands control of the clubhead. You would be better off trying to sell meat to vegetarians then change the bases of TGM. Good Luck

Interesting we haven't seen Brian chime in on this yet.

That's an interesting definition. Could we not say that the rubberized grip controls the rest of the club? Could we not say the shaft controls the clubhead and clubface? Could we not say the apoxy holding the head on the shaft in fact controls the clubhead? Indeed ALL these things are connected through diferent forces.. and part of this connection is the hand, wrist, forearm, elbows, shoulders, torso.. the entire human structure. So by this logic now we can say EVERYTHING in the human body controls the clubface, and everything in the clubs contstruction controls the clubface.

But when it comes right down to it, the absolute highest body part that directly correlates with the alignment of the leading edge of the clubface is the forearm. Once you go above the elbow, the body can move in a nearly infinate number of ways and not effect the clubface alignment. It is not until the forearms (can also be done with the upper arm rotating, but more on that later.. I'm working from the clubface up) are rotationally active does the alignment of the face change relative to the plane of the swing. It could be said that the most adventageous, and mechanically effective method of swinging the club would be to not allow for ANY forearm rotation (or roll) at all. It should simply "orbit" around the pivot of the body. I certainly would not be opposed to that point of view... and in fact I advocate it, but do not usually construct my lessons around that particular terminology.

You say that the shoulder is a hinge. I would not disagree with that. In fact you can rotate the upper arm (via the shoulder) which would effect the forearm.. thus doing the same thing as I stated in the forearm argument. But the forearm CAN rotate independent of the uppper arm. The HAND cannot rotate independent of the forearm. And THAT is the thrust of my argument. Yet you seem to be avoiding that particular argument and instead arguing that I fail to understand basic motion.

Now let me clear something up. I DO NOT teach positions. That is extreamly far from the truth. I teach one motion. I do not view the swing as a series of static points strung together. Instead I view it as a backward and forward circular motion with the club. And in my world, circles are not drawn by making an infinate number of dots on a page. Circles are drawn in ONE motion either clockwise or counter clockwise. That is a very basic principle of my teaching.. but it's slightly getting off track of the original post.

"TGM is based on hands control pivot"
I could be wrong, but was there not a part of Homer Kelly's observations that allowed for pivot controlled hands? Quite honestly I think it can be done either way, and even a combination of both. Much like the two examples I give my students frequently. In one instance you have a child on a swingset. The child moves the swing. In another model you have a pendulum where the swing has applied force near the axis.

Now if we want to get technical to the Nth degree.. in the golf swing the hands themselves cannot move without muscular movement in the arm... thus completely nullifying any notion that the HANDS control the pivot.. instead the muscles in the arms control the pivot. But that really doesn't help anyone by trying to challenge such a basic fundamental principle of TGM, now does it? But if you insist on doing so I'll be happy to step aside as a bio-technician explains human anatomy.

Ok, that last bit probably sounded a bit smug, but there is an element of truth to it.

 

[Ringer]

Oh.. and I forgot to put this in....

control

con·trol [k#601;n tr#7763;l]
vt (past con·trolled, past participle con·trolled, present participle con·trol·ling, 3rd person present singular con·trols)

1. operate machine: to work or operate something such as a vehicle or machine
Computers control many of the safety features on board

2. restrain or limit: to limit or restrict the occurrence or expression of somebody or something, especially to keep it from appearing, increasing, or spreading

3. manage: to exercise power or authority over something

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Originally posted by njmp2
[Interesting we haven't seen Brian chime in on this yet.

That's an interesting definition. Could we not say that the rubberized grip controls the rest of the club? Could we not say the shaft controls the clubhead and clubface? Could we not say the apoxy holding the head on the shaft in fact controls the clubhead? Indeed ALL these things are connected through diferent forces.. and part of this connection is the hand, wrist, forearm, elbows, shoulders, torso.. the entire human structure. So by this logic now we can say EVERYTHING in the human body controls the clubface, and everything in the clubs contstruction controls the clubface.

No, a rubber grip can’t control the clubhead, silly, but close, the hands holding it can. Those things are inanimate objects - brainless -need the hand to control them

quote:
But when it comes right down to it, the absolute highest body part that directly correlates with the alignment of the leading edge of the clubface is the forearm. Once you go above the elbow, the body can move in a nearly infinate number of ways and not effect the clubface alignment. It is not until the forearms (can also be done with the upper arm rotating, but more on that later.. I'm working from the clubface up) are rotationally active does the alignment of the face change relative to the plane of the swing. It could be said that the most adventageous, and mechanically effective method of swinging the club would be to not allow for ANY forearm rotation (or roll) at all. It should simply "orbit" around the pivot of the body. I certainly would not be opposed to that point of view... and in fact I advocate it, but do not usually construct my lessons around that particular terminology.

You say that the shoulder is a hinge. I would not disagree with that. In fact you can rotate the upper arm (via the shoulder) which would effect the forearm.. thus doing the same thing as I stated in the forearm argument. But the forearm CAN rotate independent of the uppper arm. The HAND cannot rotate independent of the forearm. And THAT is the thrust of my argument. Yet you seem to be avoiding that particular argument and instead arguing that I fail to understand basic motion.

Phew... lets see, no, no, and no. The hand can "turn" to the right and "roll" to the left while holding the club. The fact the forearm rotates doesn't give the forearm the control. Stop - you know nothing about hinging. Weak guesses.

quote:
Now let me clear something up. I DO NOT teach positions. That is extreamly far from the truth. I teach one motion. I do not view the swing as a series of static points strung together. Instead I view it as a backward and forward circular motion with the club. And in my world, circles are not drawn by making an infinate number of dots on a page. Circles are drawn in ONE motion either clockwise or counter clockwise. That is a very basic principle of my teaching.. but it's slightly getting off track of the original post.

Of course they are not drawn that way..but the points still exist as do radiuses and diameters – straight things as part of a circle. But didn't you write somewhere that the golf swing isn't a circle?

quote:
"TGM is based on hands control pivot"
I could be wrong, but was there not a part of Homer Kelly's observations that allowed for pivot controlled hands? Quite honestly I think it can be done either way, and even a combination of both. Much like the two examples I give my students frequently. In one instance you have a child on a swingset. The child moves the swing. In another model you have a pendulum where the swing has applied force near the axis.

Homer said that you can have a pivot control swing, but it is inferior and has no real use in TGM. It has only one paragraph in the book - guess it isn't worth much.

quote:
Now if we want to get technical to the Nth degree.. in the golf swing the hands themselves cannot move without muscular movement in the arm... thus completely nullifying any notion that the HANDS control the pivot.. instead the muscles in the arms control the pivot. But that really doesn't help anyone by trying to challenge such a basic fundamental principle of TGM, now does it? But if you insist on doing so I'll be happy to step aside as a bio-technician explains human anatomy.

Once again, the hands hold the club, they have last say on what the clubface does. The forearms have the muscles, so does my legs, truck, back, stomach which all move the club, but the hands use that to control. The hands are one of the most incredible instruments given to the humam race, don't waste them.

quote:
Ok, that last bit probably sounded a bit smug, but there is an element of truth to it.

Nope not smug at all. You are preventing yourself the chance to really set yourself apart from other instructors. If you took half a second to step back and learn basic hinge action, or the flying wedges, basic pressure point and power accumulators, you will be a much smarter and a much better golf instructor. This forum, besides Brian who has much to teach anyone, the number one authority on the golf swing, TGM or no TGM, in Holenone. Learn from him with being a smug know it all- you are wasting a GREAT opportunity. You from what I see on the swing you posted are in TGM terms, a "swinger," (12-2-0) horizontal hinging all the way. There is a swing called 'Hitting" (12-1-0 double check, no book at work and it isn't what some golfers think of hitting) and it uses no forearm rotation at all. None. It is very powerful push of the right arm- a wondeful swing, great with short irons and driver. Try to stop down grading TGM and learn from it - what could it hurt? Who could it help?

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by ukhacker
If the left arm may rotate or swivel then why is swivelling not clubface control? Also if we use hinge action and swivel then why is the hinge responsible for clubface control seeing that the swivel has rotated the face?

Hinge action has been defined as the blade of a hinge remaining perpendicular to its Plane of Rotation. How does this relate to Horizontal, Vertical and Angled Hinge actions?

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

Our cat was at the vet, and I had only ten minutes to pick her up. Hence, the formatting now supplied in this 'edit' was omitted. Sorry for the initial sloppiness, but I can assure you, our cat appreciates it!
==========================================================================

ukhacker,

Here are the answers to your questions in the order asked:

1. Pre-Impact, the Left Wrist Action (10-18) includes a Swivel (for Swingers only). Swingers Swivel twice -- first in Start Up and then in its mirrored Release. Hitters use only the Single Wrist Action of 10-10-C-2.

For both Hitters and Swingers, the Hinge Action controls the Clubface from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through. At the end of the Follow Through -- also for both Hitters and Swingers -- the Finish Swivel once again takes control and rotates the Clubface On Plane.

2. The Flat Left Wrist duplicates the Hinge Blade. By holding it vertical to one of the three Basic Planes of Motion, you impart that same Motion to the Clubface. Holding the Left Wrist Vertical to the Horizontal Plane produces Horizontal Hinge Action and a Closing (Only) Clubface. Holding the Left Wrist Vertical to the Vertical Plane produces Vertical Hinge Action and a Laying Back (Only) Clubface. Holding the Left Wrist Vertical to the Angled Plane produces Angled Hinge Action and a Clubface that simultaneously Closes and Lays Back.

 

[drewitgolf]

Vertical is defined as "at right angles, or perpendicular, to the plane of the supporting surface."

 

[Triad]

quote:
Nope not smug at all. You are preventing yourself the chance to really set yourself apart from other instructors. If you took half a second to step back and learn basic hinge action, or the flying wedges, basic pressure point and power accumulators, you will be a much smarter and a much better golf instructor. This forum, besides Brian who has much to teach anyone, the number one authority on the golf swing, TGM or no TGM, in Holenone. Learn from him with being a smug know it all- you are wasting a GREAT opportunity. You from what I see on the swing you posted are in TGM terms, a "swinger," (12-2-0) horizontal hinging all the way. There is a swing called 'Hitting" (12-1-0 double check, no book at work and it isn't what some golfers think of hitting) and it uses no forearm rotation at all. None. It is very powerful push of the right arm- a wondeful swing, great with short irons and driver. Try to stop down grading TGM and learn from it - what could it hurt? Who could it help?

Best post yet on this thread. I suspect that Ringer might not concur.

I have seen this over and over again. People who are not fully fluent in TGM make it their primary effort to prove that its concepts are invalid. It is surprising to me that many SMART people (like Ringer) do not approach the Book with an attitude of 'What can I gain here?' 'How can I use this to improve the way I teach my students?'

Donning my Psychologist hat, I would posit that the reason for this animosity towards TGM is that many TGM'ers have an inherent tendency to ridicule and dismiss non-TGM concepts without discussion. This is based on our unflagging confidence that the Geometries and Alignments of G.O.L.F. are correct, and alternative concepts are sub-optimal.

I, admittedly, fall into this camp. I am convinced that the information in TGM is sound. Sound Mechanically, sound Scientifically and sound Practically.

In the end,I have enjoyed hashing it out with Ringer. Even though I may not have the Full knowledge of TGM necessary to drive home my point.

Let's all try to remember that there are distinct diffenences, and distinct similarities between Manuel De la Torre's concept of Swing the Clubhead and Mr. Kelleys 2.0.

Mr. Kelly just took the mechanics to a whole new (as yet unsurpassed) level. IMHO

I hope to see continued, healthy, open-minded debate on this board.

STL,
Triad

 

[Brian Manzella]

I can hardly follow all this stuff on this thread.

Here is THE answer.

What CONTROLS the clubface?
The Hands or Centrifrugal Force...

or the less exact MOVES the clubface:
Elbows: Jimmy Ballard (Some merit for hinge action)
Forearms: The above mentioned like De La Torre
Axis Tilt: Me and some others
Hands/Wrists apart from arms: See Below

If I make a NORMAL backswing with a NEUTRAL grip and at the top my LEFT WRIST is flat and the CLUBFACE is "LAYING on the plane", 90 open...and THEN I cup or BEND my LEFT WRIST...The TOE of the club is NOW POINTING DOWN and the CLUBFACE is now 135 degrees open....Right????

So ARMS and Hands/Wrist are separate....Mr. Ringer and Mr. De La Torre

PS for Mr. De La Torre...your mentor, Ernest Jones never said ANYTHING about the forearms...just "Swing the clubhead with the hands"

 

[David Alford]

<David,

I am a bit stunned. You actualy responded to a direct question with a clear and direct answer. Are you having an off day?

Valid point about the grip. I hope that one makes it into your book.

Triad>

There was a hiatus in the personal attacks (on me at least). You can't have a debate or a discussion when people want to tear you apart.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford
There was a hiatus in the personal attacks (on me at least). You can't have a debate or a discussion when people want to tear you apart.

She: We don't communicate anymore.

He: I don't want to talk about it.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

"TGM is based on hands control pivot"
I could be wrong, but was there not a part of Homer Kelly's observations that allowed for pivot controlled hands? Quite honestly I think it can be done either way, and even a combination of both. Much like the two examples I give my students frequently. In one instance you have a child on a swingset. The child moves the swing. In another model you have a pendulum where the swing has applied force near the axis.

Yes. Mr. Kelley's preference was for Hands Controlled Pivot on the grounds of greater precision. However, he did acknowledge that one could monitor the Pivot rather than the Hands:

"The alternative to Hand Controlled Pivot is, of course, Pivot Controlled Hands per 10-24-F [Automatic Flip Release]. That does not alter the Basic Geometry or Physics requirements but assigns Physics precedence over Geometry -- Force dictating alignments. Which obviously reduces precision. But, also Clubhead Throwaway. The information for such a procedure is all included herein -- merely Monitor the Pivot instead of the hands." [/quote].

[TGM, 6th Edition; page 61].